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Stop underutilizing Ward

We need them both. And I'm perfectly fine with TJ splitting the minutes semi-evenly depending on matchups and foul trouble.
 
Statefan10 said:
I don't think there's a single person in this thread or on this site that should be telling TJ Otzelberger what he needs to do in regards to his #12 ranked Iowa State Cyclones.
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It's the same weird obssessive pattern over and over again.

ZRF: TJ is making bad decisions and doesn't have a good plan.

Most posters: you don't know what the plan is unless you have intel with the program.

ZRF: that's a terrible argument and not fact based. Here's more things that TJ doesn't know he's doing.
 
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ZRF said:
This is related to the Robert Jones thread but I didn't want to harp on this there and taint what was suppose be an ode to Jones and is hard work.

Much like last year Otz is really dropping the ball in terms of utilizing/playing one of his best and most effective players. More than even my disdain for Jones' play last year was his usage, moreso Otz's penchant for for inserting BRE at the expense of Osun. While Osun had limitations, and had play sometimes dictated by foul trouble, he was often prematurely removed from games, without the faintest sign of fatigue. I maintained it was a huge mistake not to let the game (obvious signs of fatigue, foul trouble, or ineffectiveness) dictate Osun's minutes and I'm pretty sure we lost a game or two because of it.

This year Ward is an absolute force. Even more than Osun, he is one of the best players in league play when he's on the floor. We are offensively efficient and defensively devastating when he plays. Despite this, and for reasons I can't even begin to understand, Otz is arbitrarily limiting his minutes. Much like last year, the benefactor is often Jones.

Unlike last year, Jones' play isn't the reason for this concern. Bob is fine when he's on the court and I'd be happy with his utilization if he was our best or only option. The problem is he isn't and for that matter neither is King. Otz needs to play Ward until he shows he is ineffective, is in foul trouble (which has sometimes been an issue), or is obviously fatigued. But if you condition a player to only play 20ish minutes he will never learn how to manage a larger workload. I have seen nothing from Ward to indicate he isn't capable of such. While it's also likely he won't be as "fresh" (often a counterargument by some posters on here), no player is as "fresh" playing 30+ minutes compared to 20. That doesn't mean it's not the right move or that the team doesn't benefit by having a better player on the floor more. This would most certainly be the case here.

It's time for Otz to unleash the beast and allow Ward to show he can/can't handle the workload. It's not about Robert or even Tre, it's about Ward being the much better player of the 3. Largely I think Ward/Jones' minutes should mostly be dictated by the opponent and who (of those two) is more effective. In the KU game we needed King's scoring so Bob sits. In other games Bob will be the better player/matchup so King sits. Then there may be some games where Ward is ineffective or is in foul trouble. In those the other two (obviously) get more minutes.

Personally I think Otz's objectivity is clouded by Jones' work ethic. Tre and Osun should have both played more last year but Otz routinely overplayed Jones. This year Ward losing minuets to Jones (and even King). We are a much better team when Ward is on the floor and Otz is robbing the team of it's maximal potential by limiting his minutes. A 43.9% floor time rate is beyond criminal.


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After non-conference, Osun was absolutely awful (he looked like he was struggling to move so maybe he was hurt), him losing PT was 100% warranted.

A lot of people thought BRE was a bum just because he would do some goofy stuff a couple times a game. He's cleaned that up and got significantly better at finishing, he moves extremely well for a big and is great at boxing out which won't show on the stat sheet. He's not just an energy guy, he has legitimately turned himself into a good big in the B12.

Ward is also balling. Sure it'd be nice if he didn't get in foul trouble every other game. But our entire defensive scheme is based on being aggressive, and I'd guess TJ prefers Ward play aggressively for 20 mins than lay back to handle 30 min.

Both bigs are playing really well and the ~50/50 split is appropriate.
 
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ZRF said:
Absolutely. But if we played Milan 20 minutes, and he was more effective (on a per minute basis) in those said 20 minutes, does that mean we are better off only playing him 20? Or Lipsey?

My point is we haven't played that card to even know. You are making an assumption about Ward whereas I am not. I'm saying he's wildly effective when he's on the floor and there is not much other than fouls (which again is a factor) that indicates he can't be effective playing 25 - 30 minutes a game. I've also never discounted the possibility that it MIGHT not work.

The problem I have with a lot of the responses is that they are lazy and purely anecdotal in nature. How can do what Hasan can or cannot do (in terms of minutes) if we don't let him show us on the court? To that question nobody has really given a great answer.
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So when is your meeting with TJ scheduled so you can express to him how he can better utilize his roster and thus vastly improve on the Cyclones current #12 ranking?
 
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I just think ZRF is a brilliant troll. You all keep replying to him. So much that this is now 9 pages long and growing. You will not convince ZRF, and like I told ZRF in another thread, send this brilliant insight directly to TJ instead of wasting our time.
 
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Actually I'm a little surprised that Ward didn't go back to starting once he shown he was 100%. But Jones played so well at the beginning of year I think TJ thought if it ain't broke don't fix it.
 
Ward should always be the one of the 2 on the floor if we are in the 1 and 1. We can all agree with that, right? Lol
 
ZRF said:
I agree. But he's never going to "learn" he doesn't need to body or even leave his feet to be affective. If you don't let him learn in a trial by fire setting, with some well-timed instruction, he never will. Prematurely pulling him for something you anticipate, but hasn't happened yet isn't helping the cause.
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But I feel like he's not being PULLED as a preemptive measure. The entire defense practiced one way all week. This requires the live action to BE CONSISTANT WITH THE PREP as a preemptive measure.

Adjusting the philosophy isn't as simple as just changing whoever is in the game at the time. If the other 4 guy practiced and gelled working on the assumption that BRE can be counted on you use that.

Its not always as simple as flipping a switch. as we are seeing though the benefit is overcoming more and more of the foul out risk and injury risk. So we are seeing more minutes go to Ward.

If we are routinely seeing Ward end up with 4 fouls +/-1 then I'd say Otz is killing it.
 
I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about basketball as football, but I do know that fatigue has to be managed across more than an individual game. Fatigue is cumulative, and without providing enough recovery time between bouts (which is set by the schedule) the only other levers to pull are intensity and volume. Assuming you don't want to limit intensity (i.e. effort), then all you have is volume (i.e. minutes). We want these guys to be "fresh enough" come tourney time. We saw with the 2001 team what happens when cumulative fatigue catches up to you. Kick ass during the season, then get bounced in the first round of the tournaments against bottom seeds.

If I had to sacrifice a game, I'd rather do it now by resting someone "too much" than in March by grinding them down for the proceeding 16 weeks.

ETA: It's not just fatigue from games, but also fatigue from practices, college life... all that stuff has to be managed to keep performance high at the right times. And speaking of practice, Ward surely gets chances to learn the skills you're concerned about during practice. It doesn't have to come during games. I'm guessing that you don't attend practices to know what TJ is seeing there. TJ could know from practice that increasing his workload would cause a drop in performance. There's no way for you to know that. And that makes this hole thread a "he's not even sweating" style critique. I mean you can think whatever you want, but the coaches are the only ones who have close to 100% information on a player's capabilities. Anyone else is just making educated guesses based on their personal experience.
 
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ZRF said:
I don't know about that.

TJ's handling of the bigs often has no clear pattern assigned to it. In general he plays the bigs within an allotted minute range and doesn't necessarily adjust said pattern based on the flow of the game (TJ will still sub players...particulary Ward...even during dominating stretches).
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So he has no pattern...

Except when he does the same thing without variation...

Which he needs to vary more based on game flow...

So is it a pattern, or is it arbitrary? Is it a pattern of arbitrariness? Can a pattern even be arbitrary?
 
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besserheimerphat said:
So he has no pattern...

Except when he does the same thing without variation...

Which he needs to vary more based on game flow...

So is it a pattern, or is it arbitrary? Is it a pattern of arbitrariness? Can a pattern even be arbitrary?
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Easy there. ZRF will now be be commenting for hours to show you how smart he is...
 
ZRF said:
This is related to the Robert Jones thread but I didn't want to harp on this there and taint what was suppose be an ode to Jones and is hard work.

Much like last year Otz is really dropping the ball in terms of utilizing/playing one of his best and most effective players. More than even my disdain for Jones' play last year was his usage, moreso Otz's penchant for for inserting BRE at the expense of Osun. While Osun had limitations, and had play sometimes dictated by foul trouble, he was often prematurely removed from games, without the faintest sign of fatigue. I maintained it was a huge mistake not to let the game (obvious signs of fatigue, foul trouble, or ineffectiveness) dictate Osun's minutes and I'm pretty sure we lost a game or two because of it.

This year Ward is an absolute force. Even more than Osun, he is one of the best players in league play when he's on the floor. We are offensively efficient and defensively devastating when he plays. Despite this, and for reasons I can't even begin to understand, Otz is arbitrarily limiting his minutes. Much like last year, the benefactor is often Jones.

Unlike last year, Jones' play isn't the reason for this concern. Bob is fine when he's on the court and I'd be happy with his utilization if he was our best or only option. The problem is he isn't and for that matter neither is King. Otz needs to play Ward until he shows he is ineffective, is in foul trouble (which has sometimes been an issue), or is obviously fatigued. But if you condition a player to only play 20ish minutes he will never learn how to manage a larger workload. I have seen nothing from Ward to indicate he isn't capable of such. While it's also likely he won't be as "fresh" (often a counterargument by some posters on here), no player is as "fresh" playing 30+ minutes compared to 20. That doesn't mean it's not the right move or that the team doesn't benefit by having a better player on the floor more. This would most certainly be the case here.

It's time for Otz to unleash the beast and allow Ward to show he can/can't handle the workload. It's not about Robert or even Tre, it's about Ward being the much better player of the 3. Largely I think Ward/Jones' minutes should mostly be dictated by the opponent and who (of those two) is more effective. In the KU game we needed King's scoring so Bob sits. In other games Bob will be the better player/matchup so King sits. Then there may be some games where Ward is ineffective or is in foul trouble. In those the other two (obviously) get more minutes.

Personally I think Otz's objectivity is clouded by Jones' work ethic. Tre and Osun should have both played more last year but Otz routinely overplayed Jones. This year Ward losing minuets to Jones (and even King). We are a much better team when Ward is on the floor and Otz is robbing the team of it's maximal potential by limiting his minutes. A 43.9% floor time rate is beyond criminal.


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You should rewatch the KU game. KU was down then Ward came in and KU got close.

To reiterate, Ward is great. But your player assessment, real time reaction of games, cognitive bias, and penchant for thinking you know more how to manage his team than TJ is not.
 
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ZRF said:
This is a terrible argument.

This is about as dumb as saying we should have limited Milan's minutes because he struggled defensively early in the year. The only way a player is going to get better is if you allow them to play through some mistakes and learn as they go. At times Ward has limited himself with fouls, I've admitted as much, but he's had FOUR games with 2 fouls or less in conference play. In such games he's averaged about 16.5 minutes a game.

Hey, the guy was injured and I was all for being conservative before conference play. Since it's started I've seen nothing from Ward that indicates he can't handle a higher workload. That doesn't mean 40 minutes a game, but it sure as hell (at least) means in the mid 20s, closer to 30 if she shows he can handle that.

Otz is arbitrarily limiting his minutes despite him being one of our best players. Do we sit Lipsey more so he can stay fresh? Or Milan? No, you play them as much as they can until it's shown to be detrimental.

TJ is flat out ******* up with Ward. There is really no substantial evidence to the contrary.
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They’re statistically nearly the same player across the board. Biggest difference is fouls/40
Image.jpeg

Ron has cleaned up his play while not losing energy/effort and solid positioning. Ward a bit better rebounder, passer and shot blocker.

He’s a better basketball player. But if he played more he would be much closer to fouling out every game.
 
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