Like playing with a newly installed screw in his foot?
And this really is an Osun/Jones thread, with Ward filling the role for your angst.
Have you considered a personal, non-published, journal?
Stop underutilizing Ward
- Thread starter ZRF
- Start date
And this really is an Osun/Jones thread, with Ward filling the role for your angst.
Have you considered a personal, non-published, journal?
I'd like to see Ward get more minutes, but good arguments on fatigue, fouls, injury, etc... for reasons to limit his minutes. But since Ward came back from injury it is clear he is the best big man ISU has had since McKay, and I would say at the moment he is playing better than McKay. Secondly it is clear he is definitely better than BRE. How his minutes are managed is not up to me.
In general I agree.
My biggest issue in the non-con was he was allocating the majority of his extra minutes to Pavs, who was never going to factor significantly into our conference rotation. Of our "extra" players, the focus should have been on CuJo, Watson, and Biliew. Giving Pavs 25 minutes was egregious as it meant these other players, specifically Watson, that were going to be important weren't getting minutes. In fact, there were a few games where Watson barely got 2 which was inexcusable.
Since conference he finally figured out Pavs is terrible/ill-equipped to deal with (taller) superior athletes. Omaha also didn't show he was ready to get a lot of minutes during Big 12 play. But, if he doesn't start extending Ward that's a huge mistake. You don't keep guys that make your team better off the floor. Make him prove he can't handle it. I doubt that he wouldn't but even I can't know that until he's given that opportunity.
The silver lining is we don't have a significant rotational player that significantly drags the team down, like BRE last year. Pavs is this year's BRE but thankfully TJ isn't playing him much during conference.
Actually, it does.
They do play the "same" position in that we adjust the positions of our players depending who is on the floor at a particular time. If Lipsey is out Keshon or CuJo play "the point". When King is out there with Watson or BRE he is often migrating in and out from the wing. If Pavs is out there he is either at the "point" or in another guard/wing position. If Watson is out there he can play (technically) 2-4, though he really isn't much of a shooting threat (though he's shown to be capable at times).
It's really about available minutes from positional groupings and to a lesser extent rotational groupings meant for specific situations. King, Ward, and Jones are the "bigs", with at least 1 of them being on the floor at all times. Lipsey is our true point, Keshon and CuJo shooting guards/smaller wing times, Milan and Watson are 2-3/4 types depending on the rotation. Point is, when Pavs is eating minutes those are minutes that should have went to Watson, as we can simply move guys around. There really is no alignment where Pavs "fits" or makes the unit better. His efficiency on both ends drops drastically when playing better/more athletic players. He can't shake defenders, can't get open, can't create on the dribble, can't defend, and can't keep up. He simply shouldn't see the floor unless half the team is fouled out or injured.
That argument would apply to every player .
Ward is "raw" and played very little last year whereas Rob has had significant playing time in all 3 years. I think it stands to reason Ward has a "learning curve" in figuring out the balance against Big 12 competition. It's not something that can be learned in practice, only in games.
The bigger statistical difference between the two is one that's very hard to measure with traditional metrics. When a player (Ward) creates such wild and consistent swings in team performance when he's on the floor vs on the bench it indicates there is a palpable effect on team play. Better than +/- which only evaluates the impact when a player is ON the floor, you need to compare how the team plays with said player on and said player off. Ward, especially in conference play, creates the biggest swings when he's on/off the floor. As fans we see/sense it, but when we look at the box score Ward's numbers are often pedestrian. But if you dig deeper, look at advanced metrics, then break it down we are simply a significant better team with Ward on the floor. It's not even close.
That's where my support for Ward's minutes is rooted. Unfortunately traditional stats don't tell the full story.
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I don't think we have a noticeable "change in philsophy" based on who is on the floor. Obviously certain players have certain skills, ones we look to utilize when they are out there (BRE's post moves vs Wards, Milan's shooting, etc.). That's different than saying we have a predetermined "strategy" with our rotations and pull/insert players based on said strategy which is what I think you are implying here.
The "preemptive" language in my post had more to do with pulling a player who was wildly effective without a real good reason for doing so. If the player isn't struggling, visibly tired, or in foul trouble why limit him to 20 when he's one of your most effective players? More so, why set predetermined limitations on a player when it actually hasn't been shown if they can handle it or not.
I've conceded fouls have been an issue in some games. But in the others whey weren't remotely a factor. Play him more, have him learn how to extend his minutes and stay out of trouble and see what happens. Maybe he doesn't handle the minutes, loses effectiveness, or can't stay in without fouling. I'm not discounting that possibility. But how do you know if you don't try?
I love the evolution of BRE and am thankful he's been a very useful player. Come tourny time time you want your best players, your most impactful players, to be on the floor as much as humanly possible. In that context Ward IS that guy. I think we need to make him prove he can/can't handle it.
Yu don't know if you never try.
Who gives a **** at this point. It's February now, we've got other things to worry about, not who played more against Prairie View.
Pav doesn't play much, so I don't know why you're making the case "he shouldn't see the floor". Well he doesn't.
As for Watson, be played situational minutes last year so the coaching staff already knows what he brings. His role is to rebound and play good defense. How does him chucking up 10 shots against Grambling have any bearing on what's going on right now?
You might want to talk to your Doctor about an OCD screening at this point.
If you don't give a **** or don't see the point don't respond to the post. Better yet just put me on ignore (which doesn't bother me in the least).
I never said I wanted him to chuck up "10 shots" against Grambling (really stupid point BTW). But I would see it valuable for him to get in and take some good shots in a real game, regardless of the opponent.
To a point players can only learn/get comfortable doing things/expanding their game if they get game-time experience. If you don't play Watson (which we were hardly doing in non-con), how in the **** is he going to ever expand his game?
What a dumb post.
Could be that TJ knows exactly what he's doing and that's why he's been successful. Just a thought.
I embellish alot, so I'll make it simpler. How does Watson playing heavy minutes in December and taking more shots help anything?
Hes not coming in for instant offense, his job is to rebound and play defense, two things he does very well. What exactly is he doing so poorly right now that would have been corrected?
Look, i was all for Omaha getting about 30 minutes a game in December but I've came to the realization that's not how any coaches do it. My only explanation is they want to work on rotations for when the games actually matter and throwing guys in there just for the sake of being on the floor doesn't accomplish much.
Maybe all of that communicating the coaches are doing with each other during the game (it looks like it's consistent) is just them going 'What should we do?' followed with a lot of 'Not sure, what do you think?' and then the time outs are just the same with the players.
I've said it before (aw yeah we gonna make this into an Omaha thread!?) but Omaha may have been a case where more time in real game situations only made things worse for him on the overthinking side.
The coaches know the personalities of the players, how they operate and my only 'concern' from the couch-view is that they're respecting the players enough to communicate with them effectively which seems to be a real strength with this staff.
I won't be surprised at all to see Omaha get about 5 minutes this Saturday night and see more snippets of comfort/improvement.
I have another take that may or may not apply: (I'm grasping at straws to find something that ZRF can comprehend as so far he's been only receptive to his own thoughts). Ever notice that when a teams strategy is to play man defense and when that isn't working they switch to zone if only for a few possessions? It may or may not be effective but it can throw off the opponent just long enough for you to take advantage while they adjust. I view the Ward/BRE substitution in a similar vein as you can't be as effective defending them the same way on offence or attack them the same way on defense. Neither may be the answer long term but may give you an advantage short term and as close as the talent is in this league those few plays may affect the outcome of the game. Playing Ward full time negates this advantage. Didn't want my explanation to be this longwinded but I'm trying to be ZRF. (well, no I'm not--I qualified my thoughts with "may" not "is")
Ward's on/off numbers are great right now in conference, and BRE's are not great. I'm not going to disagree with you there.
But this definitely feels like a tone change from you when last season you denied the idea that the team might play better with Jones on the court, despite the on/off numbers reflecting that they generally did.
And, as I alluded to in another comment, I don't see the box score not reflecting Ward's impact. Stats like WS and BPM don't have an on/off component. They use only traditional box score stats to estimate a player's impact on the team's wins. Ward still does really well on those! He's first on WS/40 and only behind Lipsey (and Keldermann) on BPM! Maybe it's a bit different looking at an individual box score and simple counting stats, but I think most people still understand that Ward has been playing well without having to dive into the deeper numbers. But they also understand that Ward fouls a lot, missed a lot of conditioning going into conference play, and that TJ asks Ward and Jones to go all out all of the time so they might have a relatively low ceiling on minutes.
At least this thread accomplished something.
This is a pretty good post.
The thing with BRE last year was that he was statistically the worst player receiving big minutes during conference play. Sadly (for us) it wasn't even particularly close.
Sadly I haven't found a place that provides the stats I like without having to pay for it (on off court performance). Then there are some like Miya that have usefull and interesting stats (like different in adjusted efficiency with players on the court) but can't strictly be isolated to conference play.
Even places like Miya seem to have some built in biases (for example toward minutes played) as some numbers really defy conventional wisdom. For example, Milan's defensive metrics (DBPR) ranks 3rd behind Lipsey and Gilbert for the season. Then you have guys like CuJo and Watson, ones most on here would consider superior to Milan in that regard, ranking well below.
One thing that's interesting, and IMO makes sense, is that the more athletic the player is the more their play holds up in conference relative to weaker non-conference competition. Ward is at the top in 30 day BPR change while Jones is at the bottom (I was surprised initially but most of Jones' drop was on OBPR which makes sense). Three of the four at the bottom are Milan, Pavs, and Jones who are probably our 3 least athetlic players. At the top you have Ward, Bileuw, King, Gilbert and CuJo, who are largely our most athletic guys.
Points on Ward are valid, but if he's not in fould trouble it's time for TJ to push him between 25-30 minutes as consistently as possible. Make him show what he can/cannot handle.
Probably true but the play of Ward really just seems so elite its a valid question why he doesnt get more minutes We have a lot of players that deserve playing time and that could be a source of friction amongst coaches and highly competitive players. So far so good. Nice to have a problem of to many talented players instead of not enough.