Palestine Ohio

[2speedy1]

Every American institution has been corrupted to the point that no one can take anything said at face value. Personally, I think distrust is good generally, but having said that, we have not been presented with any real information that suggests the effects of this spill will be a long term problem. We know exactly how the chemical components involved react with the environment when they burn or are mixed with water, so much of the coverage I've seen comes off as breathless agitprop while people clean up the mess and monitor the effects, which is all that can be expected at this point, eight days later.

As far as people thinking there was some sort of sinister delay in reporting the story, I'd like that explained. I saw it the morning after, with video. I think it is more a function of stories that happen outside national media hubs like DC or NY having a difficult time breaking through into national discourse, but that's more an argument for continued decentralization of reporting away from entities that funnel coverage for the viewer than anything else.

A movie everyone should watch. I am not one that is all about pollution this and climate that etc. And I am not meaning this as a political statement, because unfortunately politics has corrupted so much of the subject that its hard to really take anything said as truth anymore because so much on the subject has been propagandised and politicised.

But this is not about that subject, this is about ground water, something I think we all need to really realize how bad we have messed up our ground water, and that some of this stuff is everywhere now and forever.
This movie is eye opening, it shows just how much not only a company will go to hide this, but also just how bad it really is.

It will also make you second guess those cheap nonstick pans everyone has.

If you havent seen it. Really give it a chance. It is a really good movie.

Dark Waters (2019) ⭐ 7.6 | Biography, Drama, History

2h 6m | PG-13

www.imdb.com

 

[Gunnerclone]

Yeah, this.

The story is being covered, it’s been on the news, there’s no conspiracy hiding it from you for political reasons or any other reason. Unfortunately this happened at the same time as 1) an unimaginably deadly earthquake in Turkey that’s killed tens of thousands of people and 2) the exciting, unusual story of weird balloons floating over America being shot out of the sky by fighter jets.

People only have so much attention span these days, and “ooh shiny” is going to get more focus than most other things. This also highlights the increasingly fractured, siloed way people get their news now - they look at only a few sources of news, and if those particular outlets aren’t covering something, those people get all up in arms about “why isn’t there more coverage of this event?” when places like network TV news and national newspapers have had stories about it for days.

People constantly think the “news” is there to give you the news. No no no they are there to give you the “news” that makes them money.

 

[bozclone]

It really sucks for those people impacted by the derailment. This isn't likely a short term issue.

 

[Die4Cy]

One mechanic commenting said they may have had too many of the heavy cars at the back of the train causing some type of stress wave. And I think they also commented that the video made it seem like a bearing was going which should have been caught in maintenance. Said railroads were pushing a type of maintenance scheduling that was basically trying to reduce how much manpower hours were spent on it. I'll have to see if I can find the links, was several days ago so I'm sure I'll never find it. But it was very interesting to read.

Anyone familiar with heavy equipment maintenance knows that an equipment failure does not necessarily have anything to do with maintenance scheduling or whether it was monitored properly. Moving parts will eventually break, proper maintenance reduces the risk of down time and failure but does not eliminate it.

 

[2speedy1]

Anyone familiar with heavy equipment maintenance knows that an equipment failure does not necessarily have anything to do with maintenance scheduling or whether it was monitored properly. Moving parts will eventually break, proper maintenance reduces the risk of down time and failure but does not eliminate it.

Yeah, but in the case of the railroads they are reducing, maintenance to the bare minimums on everything from cars, to engines to TRACK.

You see there are regulations for how often everything has to be inspected, but their are also loopholes to these as well, and railroads have become experts in using these loopholes.

The fact of the matter is the way precision railroading works is by increasing the size of trains to the extreme, decreasing the maintenance to the maximum, and even forcing the workers to control the train how a computer says vs how their experience says, usually to maximize fuel savings above anything else, regardless of the possible outcome. This puts extreme stress on equipment, and track etc, and pushes employees to their absolute limit.

Sometimes its just an accident. Sometimes it is not. But every time you have to realize the RR will go to every possible extreme to control the narrative. They will most likely scapegoat an employee in the end, because no way could it be their piss poor management, or lack there of that caused it.

Their is so much wrong with the RRs today, I wish I could explain it all, but just know its not good.

 

[besserheimerphat]

Agreed, this is an absolute travesty. Last I knew, the red cross hasnt showed up, Fema hasnt showed up, these people have nothing now.

The Red Cross is there and has been there for a while: www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/red-cross-assists-east-palestine-residents/amp/

FEMA requires the governor of the state to ask the President. They don't just show up.

Ohio has their own emergency management agency that hasn't updated their website since 2/9.

The Ohio EPA is monitoring air quality along with the US EPA. Local municipalities are monitoring water quality.

I was able to find all this in about 10 minutes by Googling on my phone.

 

[PSYclone22]

You should all blame yourselves for purchasing goods that require shipping instead of living off the land.

 

[GMackey32]

A movie everyone should watch. I am not one that is all about pollution this and climate that etc. And I am not meaning this as a political statement, because unfortunately politics has corrupted so much of the subject that its hard to really take anything said as truth anymore because so much on the subject has been propagandised and politicised.

But this is not about that subject, this is about ground water, something I think we all need to really realize how bad we have messed up our ground water, and that some of this stuff is everywhere now and forever.
This movie is eye opening, it shows just how much not only a company will go to hide this, but also just how bad it really is.

It will also make you second guess those cheap nonstick pans everyone has.

If you havent seen it. Really give it a chance. It is a really good movie.

Dark Waters (2019) ⭐ 7.6 | Biography, Drama, History

2h 6m | PG-13

www.imdb.com

Awesome movie. Makes you really think about purchases.

 

[cowgirl836]

Every American institution has been corrupted to the point that no one can take anything said at face value. Personally, I think distrust is good generally, but having said that, we have not been presented with any real information that suggests the effects of this spill will be a long term problem. We know exactly how the chemical components involved react with the environment when they burn or are mixed with water, so much of the coverage I've seen comes off as breathless agitprop while people clean up the mess and monitor the effects, which is all that can be expected at this point, eight days later.

As far as people thinking there was some sort of sinister delay in reporting the story, I'd like that explained. I saw it the morning after, with video. I think it is more a function of stories that happen outside national media hubs like DC or NY having a difficult time breaking through into national discourse, but that's more an argument for continued decentralization of reporting away from entities that funnel coverage for the viewer than anything else.

Parts of Cali were absolutely hammered by insane weather a few weeks ago and I don't remember seeing it discussed much on here. Closer to home, more likely to get noticed.

 

[cowgirl836]

Anyone familiar with heavy equipment maintenance knows that an equipment failure does not necessarily have anything to do with maintenance scheduling or whether it was monitored properly. Moving parts will eventually break, proper maintenance reduces the risk of down time and failure but does not eliminate it.

I'm definitely mashing together a handful of stories I read and I think the emphasis had been on the precision maintenance and how it increased the risk of these types of incidents. That + employee overwork makes mistakes and missed issues more likely. Basically everything @2speedy1 and @BMWallace are saying.

 

[besserheimerphat]

Saw a TikTok from a rail worker yesterday talking about train operation. Said that the entire train has to be managed to maintain stresses along the train. As trains get longer, different parts are going uphill or downhill at the same time so it takes lots of coordination. Some parts pull/push while others brake to keep everything moving under control.

Apparently these cars were towards the back. When the train communications system broke somewhere in the middle, the back portion that contained these cars was no longer in sync with the rest of the train.

Asking too few people, with too little rest, to manage too many cars, which are poorly maintained.

 

[GMackey32]

Saw a TikTok from a rail worker yesterday talking about train operation. Said that the entire train has to be managed to maintain stresses along the train. As trains get longer, different parts are going uphill or downhill at the same time so it takes lots of coordination. Some parts pull/push while others brake to keep everything moving under control.

Apparently these cars were towards the back. When the train communications system broke somewhere in the middle, the back portion that contained these cars was no longer in sync with the rest of the train.

Asking too few people, with too little rest, to manage too many cars, which are poorly maintained.

Capitalism baby!

 

[brett108]

Didn't some authority decide to burn the cars in question so they wouldn't explode? I'm not sure what the resulting burn products are, but they certainly are airborne. Talk about no good choices.

HCl and phosgene are the ones to worry about. Also the combustion is likely very incomplete. There is now way to get enough oxygen into it with a forced air system, and likely steam to force water shift reactions to occur.

 

[2speedy1]

Capitalism baby!

Railroads operate more as a Government entity with private ownership, they dont fit in a true capitalist business model.

I mean Amtrak is run by the the US gov and it has rights on any railroad in the country, the Railroad and the govt are interlaced more than any company in the US. They have similar powers of the Govt in things such as imminent domain etc. They do as they please when they please and the govt signs off on it.

There was a plan for a new siding in an area, I asked a manager if they thought the landowners would sell, the manager said if they don't accept what we offer, we will imminent domain it and take it for less.

In many ways the Railroads have power over the govt, because they know if they stop, they can and will hold the nation hostage, the govt will do whatever they want to prevent a shutdown. That being said the Govt can take control of the RR if needed/ordered and/or run govt trains on them as they see fit. The govt moves a lot of equipment and military supplies on the RR.

There is a reason that trains run EVERYDAY, including Christmas, they never shutdown.

The amount of Hazmat traveling around on trains would scare a lot of people, and just how bad it would be if an accident happened in a metro area.

 

[mkadl]

Parts of Cali were absolutely hammered by insane weather a few weeks ago and I don't remember seeing it discussed much on here. Closer to home, more likely to get noticed.

Parts of Cali are always getting hammered by something or another. But thats just me.

 

[Turn2]

HCl and phosgene are the ones to worry about. Also the combustion is likely very incomplete. There is now way to get enough oxygen into it with a forced air system, and likely steam to force water shift reactions to occur.

This part seems pretty bad to me, especially considering how far those billows of black smoke can be seen. This is going to be more than a local impact event.

 

[bawbie]

Norfolk Southern. That is the company that operated this train. It's frustrating that their name is not being brought up in every single article about the incident.

Also, I think secondary blame can be placed on Congress and the Biden admin for shutting down the railroad workers strike in December.

I'm curious what you think the RR union strike has to do with this accident?

 

[alarson]

I'm curious what you think the RR union strike has to do with this accident?

Probably should read the thread.

 

[drmwevr08]

This is the kind of **** you get when we, as a nation, have put the ability to make money as the far and away number one goal over humanity, nature or anything else. Abuse employees? How's your share price? Destroy the environment? Dividends went up!

 

[GMackey32]

Railroads operate more as a Government entity with private ownership, they dont fit in a true capitalist business model.

I mean Amtrak is run by the the US gov and it has rights on any railroad in the country, the Railroad and the govt are interlaced more than any company in the US. They have similar powers of the Govt in things such as imminent domain etc. They do as they please when they please and the govt signs off on it.

There was a plan for a new siding in an area, I asked a manager if they thought the landowners would sell, the manager said if they don't accept what we offer, we will imminent domain it and take it for less.

In many ways the Railroads have power over the govt, because they know if they stop, they can and will hold the nation hostage, the govt will do whatever they want to prevent a shutdown. That being said the Govt can take control of the RR if needed/ordered and/or run govt trains on them as they see fit. The govt moves a lot of equipment and military supplies on the RR.

There is a reason that trains run EVERYDAY, including Christmas, they never shutdown.

The amount of Hazmat traveling around on trains would scare a lot of people, and just how bad it would be if an accident happened in a metro area.

I was just talking about the part of “forcing” workers to work long hours while undermanned on equipment that’s faulty.