Ethanol is a joke!

[isuno1fan]

Corn and soybeans are an abundant good food source for the wildlife. The wildlife don't go and stake a claim on the 25 square foot of prairie and call it their home. They move around all the time. The point I was making was there is a plentifull food source.

I can assure you that the declining bird population in Iowa is largely attributed to the ethanol boonm. That is straight from the top at the DNR...fyi.

There are bird counts done throughout the year, every year. There are trends and patterns established that are compared against climate conditions and land conditions. There is a direct correlation between the decrease in Iowa gamebird population and the increase in corn planting.

Why we put so much into an alternative fuel that is anything but the ultimate answer is beyond me. The presence of ethanol is doing little to keep fuel prices in check and it has too many question marks surrounding its overall economic and environmental impact to keep pouring money into it.

Any sensible person should see that ethanol (corn based or otherwise (biomass)) is not what this country needs. I'm all for alternative fuel choices, but let's get real regarding ethanol's future as a final solution to the fuel crisis.

 

[Klubber]

Ethanol is not a joke it all. The way we're going about using and producing it in this country is what's a joke.


Some facts:

*The U.S. taxes imported ethanol from Brazil at 54 cents-per-gallon, which effectively blocks most Brazilian ethanol from reaching U.S. consumers.

*An acre of sugar cane in Brazil produces about 800 gallons of ethanol, while an acre of corn produces 328 gallons.

*The starch from corn also must be converted into sugar before it can be turned into ethanol, an extra step that requires a bigger investment in energy. As a result, sugar-cane ethanol produces 8 units of energy for every 1 unit of fossil fuels invested in its production, while the ratio for corn ethanol is 1.3 to 1.



These two articles clearly illustrate the tremendous potential of ethanol, but when special interests get involved, great potential is often lost.


McClatchy Washington Bureau | 05/02/2008 | Brazil can't find world market for its ethanol

McClatchy Washington Bureau | 05/20/2008 | Brazil's sugar cane mills race to keep up with ethanol boom

 

[bellzisu]

I really didn't want to get into this arguement, but I thought I would drop my 2 cents worth.

Ethanol is not a complete joke. I do feel it is over priced still. They really need to find a way to make it more efficient to produce.

Their is an abundance of left over grain. Alot of the reason why corn prices are so high is because people are playing the markets. Do these people have an interest in grain production?? Not really, they are just trying to make a profit. I really believe there needs to be a real and concrete value put on corn and other grain commodities.

This is also part of the reason why oil is so high. People are speculating and profiting off of it.

Why not run up the prices and profit from it?

Farmers are not making the big profits you guys might think. Remember with higher corn and soybean prices come higher input costs. Anhydrous is reaching close to a $1000 a ton. A bag of corn is $250 or more. Everyone wants a bigger cut.... When corn prices go back down, and yes, they will probably more sooner then later, will inputs go back down??? I highly doubt it...

Farmers are farming as much ground as they can to make a profit. Just like most normal people would do if put in their situation.

 

[hfour]

The price for 87 octane regular gas would be no less than $.45/gallon higher if there were zero ethanol. It is replacing 10-15% of the gasoline.

It seems to me your real problem is that you don't know anyone that has any land for you to hunt on.

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

I can assure you that the declining bird population in Iowa is largely attributed to the ethanol boonm. That is straight from the top at the DNR...fyi.

There are bird counts done throughout the year, every year. There are trends and patterns established that are compared against climate conditions and land conditions. There is a direct correlation between the decrease in Iowa gamebird population and the increase in corn planting.

I am assuming you are making the point that more acres are in corn production taking away vital wildlife habitat. I went to the USDA website and did a search on the corn and soybean producing acres going back to 1998 and can go back farther if you want. According to this Iowa has a total of 23 million acres that are in corn/soybean production for 2008. That 23 million is the highest amount going back to 1998. Here is the breakdown of tillable acres and the percentage of the 2008 projection.

1998 22,900,000 tillable acres or 99.57% of 2008 number
1999 22,900,000 tillable acres or 99.57% of 2008 number
2000 23,000,000 tillable acres or same as 2008
2001 22,700,000 tillable acres or 98.7% of 2008
2002 22,650,000 tillable acres or 98.48% of 2008
2003 22,900.000 tillable acres or 99.57% of 2008
2004 22,900,000 tillable acres
2005 22,850,000 tillable acres or 99.78% of 2008
2006 22,750,000 tilllable acres or 98.91% of 2008
2007 22,750,000
2008 23,000,000

So, using these actual numbers from www.usda.org, how do you come up with all this wildlife habitat being destroyed, especially since ethanol didn't really gear up production until the last 3-4 yrs???

Also, I stated earlier that 2.9 million acres of CRP was taking out and put into crop production for this year. That would be 12.6% of Iowa farmground but that is a national number but I don't have time to go through every state and come up with figures. But you can bet it is WAY less the .5%.

 

[hfour]

Don't confuse the issue with facts.

We will just agree to disagree on this one. Hopefully you still hate the Hawks.

 

[CYVADER]

and i just found where enrollments in crp are down 21% from 07 compared to 06 followed by: "This drop can primarily be attributed to competition with rising cash rental rates on existing cropland. The growing biofuels industry has caused commodity prices to surge and cash rental rates have increased substantially. Rental rates on CRP have failed to keep pace and in many cases are only half of the going rates on nearby cropland."

 

[isuno1fan]

I am assuming you are making the point that more acres are in corn production taking away vital wildlife habitat. I went to the USDA website and did a search on the corn and soybean producing acres going back to 1998 and can go back farther if you want. According to this Iowa has a total of 23 million acres that are in corn/soybean production for 2008. That 23 million is the highest amount going back to 1998. Here is the breakdown of tillable acres and the percentage of the 2008 projection.

1998 22,900,000 tillable acres or 99.57% of 2008 number
1999 22,900,000 tillable acres or 99.57% of 2008 number
2000 23,000,000 tillable acres or same as 2008
2001 22,700,000 tillable acres or 98.7% of 2008
2002 22,650,000 tillable acres or 98.48% of 2008
2003 22,900.000 tillable acres or 99.57% of 2008
2004 22,900,000 tillable acres
2005 22,850,000 tillable acres or 99.78% of 2008
2006 22,750,000 tilllable acres or 98.91% of 2008
2007 22,750,000
2008 23,000,000

So, using these actual numbers from www.usda.org, how do you come up with all this wildlife habitat being destroyed, especially since ethanol didn't really gear up production until the last 3-4 yrs???

Also, I stated earlier that 2.9 million acres of CRP was taking out and put into crop production for this year. That would be 12.6% of Iowa farmground but that is a national number but I don't have time to go through every state and come up with figures. But you can bet it is WAY less the .5%.

These figures are useless as they do not point out wildlife habitat in the so called tillable acres. If a farmer has 500 acres he has designated for corn or beans it is going to show as 500 acres in your figures. What doesn't show is the reduction in habitat that used to remain untouched by many farmers within that 500 acres that is now farmed from "fencepost to fencepost" as was quoted earlier.

Truthfully for every stat you or I could produce, the person on the other side of the argument can produce a figure/study/paper contradicting the information. I have been in on this discussion wayyy to many times to know that is not true so it is pointless.

The basic point is that ethanol will never and can never be the ultimate answer to alternative fuel to remove us from oil dependance so why do we continue to pump money into it and subsidize the heck out of it when there are smarter and better technologies we should be leading the charge on.

 

[sloaner]

Its not about the price

As much as it is our reliance on oil.

 

[jbhtexas]

These figures are useless as they do not point out wildlife habitat in the so called tillable acres.

In my dealings with the USDA, the untilled lands are marked out on the satellite maps, and the acreage for the untilled area is computed and subtracted from the tillable acres.

Truthfully for every stat you or I could produce, the person on the other side of the argument can produce a figure/study/paper contradicting the information.

Your turn...produce a stat to support your side of the argument...

 

[CYVADER]

In my dealings with the USDA, the untilled lands are marked out on the satellite maps, and the acreage for the untilled area is computed and subtracted from the tillable acres.



Your turn...produce a stat to support your side of the argument...

see post 67

 

[1100011CS]

In my dealings with the USDA, the untilled lands are marked out on the satellite maps, and the acreage for the untilled area is computed and subtracted from the tillable acres.



Your turn...produce a stat to support your side of the argument...

"In my dealings" is not a stat nor a fact.

 

[jbhtexas]

"In my dealings" is not a stat nor a fact.

It most certainly is a fact.

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

The basic point is that ethanol will never and can never be the ultimate answer to alternative fuel to remove us from oil dependance so why do we continue to pump money into it and subsidize the heck out of it when there are smarter and better technologies we should be leading the charge on.

I agree it will never be the ultimate answer, but it is a means to an end and hopefully better alternative fuel. The technology in an ethanol plant built today is decades ahead of a plant built just 3 yrs ago. They are much more efficient and it is just getting better. If I were to make a guess, I would say that switchgrass will be a third major crop somewhere in the corn belt within 3-5 yrs. It is exponentially more efficient in converting the plant starches into ethanol without much biproducts that result from processing corn and there is actually an energy gain which is not the case with corn based ethanol(although it is getting closer). What we learn from corn based ethanol today with make the industry unrecognizable to what we're used to only 2-3 yrs down the road.

We will have to agree to disagree on this because I would imagine that neither of our opinions on the subject have changed. We can agree to love the Cyclones and know that the Hawks ultimately suck moose ejaculate off of spruce trees though......:biggrin:

 

[woodie]

six dollar a bushel corn is a helluva lot better than 1.40 dollar a bushel corn.
ask any iowa farmer if ethanol is a joke. maybe the pork farmers costs for feed are up,but i don't hear too many grain farmers ******** about their return per acre on the price of corn.
if you don't like ethanol.add some caramel color to it and think of it as caramel colored lynchburg lemonade!!!!!

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

and i just found where enrollments in crp are down 21% from 07 compared to 06 followed by: "This drop can primarily be attributed to competition with rising cash rental rates on existing cropland. The growing biofuels industry has caused commodity prices to surge and cash rental rates have increased substantially. Rental rates on CRP have failed to keep pace and in many cases are only half of the going rates on nearby cropland."

That number might be right but when you sign up a farm for the CRP program it is a 10 yr commitment so it is not 21% of all CRP ground but 21% of 10% of the CRP ground. So taking the 21% and using it on all the 10yr CRP ground makes it only 2.1%.

And yes, ethanol does have an impact that has contributed to raising the price of corn to $6, but worldwide supply problems and increase deman driven from China now becoming a net importer of corn whereas before now they have been heavy exporters and a pretty sizable one at that. They have turned farmground into urban areas at an alarming rate as well and have as much to do with the price of corn as anybody.

 

[isukendall]

Just my opinion, but I'd rather have our government give subsidies to an industry that not only helps the American farmer, but diverts some of the money from going to foreign oil. Ethanol is not the final answer, but it is a start in finding that answer.

Agreed. Ethanol is still an industry in its infancy, and will continue over time with additional research in switchgrass and other biofuel intensive crops. Currently I hear the main problem with switchgrass is transport costs increase very quickly, because it is so dense and heavy. But we have people working on it. Corn was just the foot in the door for the ethanol industry.

Side note, shame on you anyone who claims that all farmers are getting rich on subsidies and/or high crop prices. Most crop prices have stagnated for several years (decades if inflation-adjusted) and were due for an adjustment, ethanol or not. IMO oil prices are driving everything up, because that drives production costs and shipping. Farmers get hit with fuel prices much harder than the average consumer, and those costs are carried over into other agricultural inputs previously mentioned, such as fertilizer. So yeah, they're making a lot more money, but it costs them a lot more and in the end, as always with farmers, it's pretty much a wash. Subsidies are made to help the consumer in the end, that's why you can afford to feed your family and have cash left over...so until you want to start paying $3 for a can of Coke and $15 for a pound of beef, understand that your hard-earned tax dollars filtered through agricultural production is what gives you cheap food.

Sorry about the rant

 

[CYVADER]

Side note, shame on you anyone who claims that all farmers are getting rich on subsidies and/or high crop prices. Most crop prices have stagnated for several years (decades if inflation-adjusted) and were due for an adjustment, ethanol or not. IMO oil prices are driving everything up, because that drives production costs and shipping. Farmers get hit with fuel prices much harder than the average consumer, and those costs are carried over into other agricultural inputs previously mentioned, such as fertilizer. So yeah, they're making a lot more money, but it costs them a lot more and in the end, as always with farmers, it's pretty much a wash. Subsidies are made to help the consumer in the end, that's why you can afford to feed your family and have cash left over...so until you want to start paying $3 for a can of Coke and $15 for a pound of beef, understand that your hard-earned tax dollars filtered through agricultural production is what gives you cheap food.

Sorry about the rant

no need to apologize, pretty much what i've said at least once in this thread. the high grain prices aren't helping anyone. grain farmers are now able to break even instead of lose money, while everyone else is paying higher prices.

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

isukendall, that was an awesome post.......rep for you.

 

[cyeah]

Side note, shame on you anyone who claims that all farmers are getting rich on subsidies and/or high crop prices. Most crop prices have stagnated for several years (decades if inflation-adjusted) and were due for an adjustment, ethanol or not. IMO oil prices are driving everything up, because that drives production costs and shipping. Farmers get hit with fuel prices much harder than the average consumer, and those costs are carried over into other agricultural inputs previously mentioned, such as fertilizer. So yeah, they're making a lot more money, but it costs them a lot more and in the end, as always with farmers, it's pretty much a wash. Subsidies are made to help the consumer in the end, that's why you can afford to feed your family and have cash left over...so until you want to start paying $3 for a can of Coke and $15 for a pound of beef, understand that your hard-earned tax dollars filtered through agricultural production is what gives you cheap food.

Sorry about the rant

Quick! somebody call the wabulance! If farmers are so darn poor they should find a way to make a living doing something else.

I get darn tired hearing about how hard farmers have it, my grandfather farmed for his entire life, fed and raised four children, and never took one cent of aid from the gov't. Yeah, alot of farmers dont make money - because a lot of them are either bad business people or spend what they earn on crap so they don't pay taxes.

It is amazing how many farmers don't make anythign for years and years but when they hit 55 and realize they have not paid into SS suddenly they start turning a profit until retirement.

All the while they are not making money, they give each child a gift of $12,999 in grain, buy new trucks, add any expense they can think of to the operation just to avoid income taxes.

Also, if they can't make money what the heck are they doing paying $5,400 per acre for crappy rolling hill, sandy soiled land?

Farmers are some of the greediest, most unthankful, bitchingest people I have ever seen. It is to dry, to wet, to cold, to hot constantly for them! They complain ad nauseum then don't look for new jobs. The way they are leveraging for farmland we are going to be headed right back to a farming "crisis" and once again the tax payer will be on the hook.

I will gladly pay market prices (because I will feed out a hog and a steer each year) than hear the crappin' and moaning from farmers!

rant off.