When do you think you will buy a 100% pure electric vehicle?

[isucy86]

Sorry, I thought you meant complete swappable batteries, which seems pretty nuts in a vehicle.

Never know. Chinese auto maker NIO uses a battery swap technology. At current evolution of batteries, I would agree it's probably not ideal solution. But it is fun to see how different companies are approaching EV marketplace.

Do a search on YouTube for NIO Battery Swap stations. Fun to just see the automation involved.

 

[wxman1]

The whole swapping out batteries to be used as a home back up has been super intriguing to me.

 

[nrg4isu]

The whole swapping out batteries to be used as a home back up has been super intriguing to me.

"When you bundle home and auto..."

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Some vehicles already have this feature right? Ford lightning? I wouldn't think you would have to remove the batteries from the vehicle.

 

[mramseyISU]

My commute is a little over 30 miles one way. 45 to 60 miles wouldn't be a challenge at all. I live in a small town. I'm not afraid to drive my electric car anywhere. I've only ever had to use a super charger 2 times, longer road trip and super chargers are everywhere.

You're right that if you can't charge at home it probably doesn't make sense. But you're way off on how far you can go. I dont know why you think people in rural areas shouldn't have an electric car and that they're only for city people.

I didn't say they're only for city people but unless you have a 240 plug in your garage having a hour commute both ways is going to be tough if you're in an area with out publicly available fast charging options. Lets just do a little math here. If you are relying on a 120V, 20 Amp plug in your garage you're getting about 2.4 kW per hour of charging. Lets say you have an hour commute and work a 9-5 job so you can charge from 6PM to 8AM which is what 14 hours. If you're doing zero preconditioning on the battery and don't go anywhere after work that's 33.6 kWh of energy going to the battery. The lightning I've been using is getting about 2.5 kWh per mile on average. So if my math is mathing if I just plug into a standard 120 V outlet overnight and my commute is longer than 14 miles I can't keep up with the energy usage. If your garage is not climate controlled like most of them or if you park outside you're using 3-5 kWh of energy to maintain battery temp for charging for part of that about half of the year when it's above 90F or below 50F which takes all the energy from your wall outlet until you get the battery in the right temperature range to take a charge. That's going to drop the amount of range you gain overnight even more. Now maybe some tesla owners can comment to what they're getting for kWh/mile because I would assume that a tesla is getting better efficiency than a rolling brick does.

 

[mramseyISU]

"When you bundle home and auto..."

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Some vehicles already have this feature right? Ford lightning? I wouldn't think you would have to remove the batteries from the vehicle.

If you get the ford home charger installed you can use the truck as a back-up battery. You can also do that with the hybrid F-150 as well if your wall charger supports it like a regular gas generator.

 

[dmclone]

I didn't say they're only for city people but unless you have a 240 plug in your garage having a hour commute both ways is going to be tough if you're in an area with out publicly available fast charging options. Lets just do a little math here. If you are relying on a 120V, 20 Amp plug in your garage you're getting about 2.4 kW per hour of charging. Lets say you have an hour commute and work a 9-5 job so you can charge from 6PM to 8AM which is what 14 hours. If you're doing zero preconditioning on the battery and don't go anywhere after work that's 33.6 kWh of energy going to the battery. The lightning I've been using is getting about 2.5 kWh per mile on average. So if my math is mathing if I just plug into a standard 120 V outlet overnight and my commute is longer than 14 miles I can't keep up with the energy usage. If your garage is not climate controlled like most of them or if you park outside you're using 3-5 kWh of energy to maintain battery temp for charging for part of that about half of the year when it's above 90F or below 50F which takes all the energy from your wall outlet until you get the battery in the right temperature range to take a charge. That's going to drop the amount of range you gain overnight even more. Now maybe some tesla owners can comment to what they're getting for kWh/mile because I would assume that a tesla is getting better efficiency than a rolling brick does.

I wouldn't recommend anyone pay $50k+ for an EV and then not get a home charger. It would be like getting a 4k TV and then only watching the Andy Griffith show.

Edit: An exception to this may be free charging at work, but even that I would question.

 

[DSMCy]

I hadn't thought about being able to swap or repair individual cells, that's interesting.

I don't see swapping full batteries as a realistic or even necessary solution. IMO, just the stockpile of "spare" batteries that would be required for this makes it nearly impossible.

Battery technology simply needs to continue to improve. Higher, more dense storage to improve range. Faster charging and more infrastructure.

I kind of wish there was more of a push for Plug In Hybrids. I think these could have (or maybe still could) been a nice bridge between ICE and full EV.

 

[flycy]

The user-replaceable part is huge in my opinion. We're a long way from that, but there's little reason to NOT have this in the future.

I doubt that will ever be mainstream any more than replacing your main electrical panel in your house is. Too much risk of injury or death for those who don't understand the danger of the power these batteries put out. Even mechanics fall into this category, its the reason working on electric vehicles is a whole different skill than real cars.

 

[do4CY]

I wouldn't recommend anyone pay $50k+ for an EV and then not get a home charger. It would be like getting a 4k TV and then only watching the Andy Griffith show.

Edit: An exception to this may be free charging at work, but even that I would question.

Yeah, if you don't have a way to have a 240v plug in at home, especially if you aren't close to other chargers, that would be rough. I know of someone who bought a mach-e but lives in an apartment with no way to charge it there. Not a smart move.

Our bolt came with a level one charger, so 120v that can charge at 8 or 12 amps, you tell the car what to charge at. But after some searching this same charger can be run at 240v so I hardwired it and now I can charge at 240v at 12 amps which so far has been enough to charge it easily overnight. My garage only runs off of a 30amp subpanel so I wouldn't want to do anymore than that anyways. It also helps that my garage is heated. I did install a 40 Amp level 2 charger in my machine shed if I need, although the bolt can only charge at 32 amps.

On average we have been getting around 4 miles/kwh in the nicer temps but that drops down to 3 or less on the few days that it has been colder. I have seen up to 6 mi/kwh but that didn't last long. We bought it with just under 25k miles and the trip had never been reset and the average was 2.1 mi/kwh. We have put a little over 1000 miles on it and that average has gone up to 3.1 mi/kwh which seems insane. My guess is that it was kept in the cold which brought that number down.

 

[wxman1]

Yeah, if you don't have a way to have a 240v plug in at home, especially if you aren't close to other chargers, that would be rough. I know of someone who bought a mach-e but lives in an apartment with no way to charge it there. Not a smart move.

Our bolt came with a level one charger, so 120v that can charge at 8 or 12 amps, you tell the car what to charge at. But after some searching this same charger can be run at 240v so I hardwired it and now I can charge at 240v at 12 amps which so far has been enough to charge it easily overnight. My garage only runs off of a 30amp subpanel so I wouldn't want to do anymore than that anyways. It also helps that my garage is heated. I did install a 40 Amp level 2 charger in my machine shed if I need, although the bolt can only charge at 32 amps.

On average we have been getting around 4 miles/kwh in the nicer temps but that drops down to 3 or less on the few days that it has been colder. I have seen up to 6 mi/kwh but that didn't last long. We bought it with just under 25k miles and the trip had never been reset and the average was 2.1 mi/kwh. We have put a little over 1000 miles on it and that average has gone up to 3.1 mi/kwh which seems insane. My guess is that it was kept in the cold which brought that number down.

Every new home should be built with 240 in the garage.

 

[herbicide]

Every new home should be built with 240 in the garage.

I could argue that with the onset of these vehicles every house should have 480v three phase available.

 

[CascadeClone]

On average we have been getting around 4 miles/kwh in the nicer temps but that drops down to 3 or less on the few days that it has been colder. I have seen up to 6 mi/kwh but that didn't last long. We bought it with just under 25k miles and the trip had never been reset and the average was 2.1 mi/kwh. We have put a little over 1000 miles on it and that average has gone up to 3.1 mi/kwh which seems insane. My guess is that it was kept in the cold which brought that number down.

So at 3 miles per kWh, if a kWh costs 18 cents (Alliant for me), then that's 6 cents a mile. Or about 17 miles per dollar.

But if my ICE gets 25 mpg and gas is $2.50, then I am getting 10 miles per dollar.

I thought it would be farther apart than that. Am I doing the math right?

 

[nrg4isu]

I doubt that will ever be mainstream any more than replacing your main electrical panel in your house is. Too much risk of injury or death for those who don't understand the danger of the power these batteries put out. Even mechanics fall into this category, its the reason working on electric vehicles is a whole different skill than real cars.

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. The thing is it IS technically feasible or at least COULD be. I almost expect that it would take something like the EU's lawsuit against apple to force USB C.

Individual cells aren't all that dangerous. There's no risk of shock at all. Battery packs can be made relatively safely as well - just see what the lawn equipment industry has done there. The biggest risk is in shorting the battery which in turn can cause fire. That's not different from lead-acid batteries in ICE vehicles.

I don't see this being something that happens anytime soon. Maybe 2 more generations of BEVs is where you start seeing this (i.e. in 15-20 years).

 

[dmclone]

Sorry if I've already showed these, but here is another graph.

The Tesla Supercharger in OP was an instance of me thinking I was going to charge there without listening to the software. Then realizing "You're being stupid" and unplugging....so 1 kwh. Walnut Street was probably a free hotel charger. Ikea was a free charger that was the slowest charger in history.

The times I charged 90+% was when I was planning a road trip.

This charging doesn't include the trip home from Naperville, a round trip to Omaha, and another round trip to Mason City. Also, the Bethany cost is not correct. All of these outages were user error.

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So at 3 miles per kWh, if a kWh costs 18 cents (Alliant for me), then that's 6 cents a mile. Or about 17 miles per dollar.

But if my ICE gets 25 mpg and gas is $2.50, then I am getting 10 miles per dollar.

I thought it would be farther apart than that. Am I doing the math right?

I think my graph shows about 3.5 cents per mile dollar but that's with MidAmerican. Only about $800/year savings and that will be offset by higher insurance costs that I pay. Not asking for it, but I would pay double in fuel costs to drive an EV. If a person is worried about fuel costs, it's very hard to beat something like a Prius.

 

[mramseyISU]

I wouldn't recommend anyone pay $50k+ for an EV and then not get a home charger. It would be like getting a 4k TV and then only watching the Andy Griffith show.

Edit: An exception to this may be free charging at work, but even that I would question.

I agree, you need a home charger for this to be feasible without a lot of compromises or a good charger at work. I have a 3 kW charger at work for free but that doesn't quite cut it. I gained about 10% SOC in 4 hours on Thursday with it.

I hadn't thought about being able to swap or repair individual cells, that's interesting.

I don't see swapping full batteries as a realistic or even necessary solution. IMO, just the stockpile of "spare" batteries that would be required for this makes it nearly impossible.

Battery technology simply needs to continue to improve. Higher, more dense storage to improve range. Faster charging and more infrastructure.

I kind of wish there was more of a push for Plug In Hybrids. I think these could have (or maybe still could) been a nice bridge between ICE and full EV.

Swapping batteries is going to be tough for a home gamer these aren't like your drill battery where you just swap them with just a couple retaining tabs. These BEVs use liquid to heat and cool the battery. You need a way (like a hydraulic line on a tractor implement) to prevent all the antifreeze from pouring out of the battery when you replace it. In theory the PHEV is a great stepping stone while we're working out the kinks in the BEV platforms but they have all the complexity of a BEV with all of the complexity of an ICE vehicle in the same vehicle.

 

[do4CY]

So at 3 miles per kWh, if a kWh costs 18 cents (Alliant for me), then that's 6 cents a mile. Or about 17 miles per dollar.

But if my ICE gets 25 mpg and gas is $2.50, then I am getting 10 miles per dollar.

I thought it would be farther apart than that. Am I doing the math right?

Your math is correct, I am under 12 cents/kwh so it will be different for everyone. The efficiency is better but not light years ahead. You still have to move a hunk of metal from a to b.

We bought our bolt used for a fraction of the original cost and that is the main reason we decided to try an ev. I wasn't going to shell out 60k for the blazer ev that was sitting in the showroom. But we have liked it so far and I have no regrets of at least trying it out for a while.

 

[do4CY]

Every new home should be built with 240 in the garage.

I would put at least a 100 Amp panel in a new garage, but I also like power tools

 

[twincyties]

We recently bought a model 3 and have been taking advantage of the free supercharging at nearby Target. Plug in the car, do the usual Target run and we’re fully charged when we’re done.

During the week we probably put 30 miles a day in the car and plugging into normal outlet will get us fully charged by morning.

Went into this planning to install 240 and home charger when our free super charging was up but honestly wondering if it’s necessary. Thankfully the install won’t cost us much due to current electricity configuration and conduit running to the garage. Almost looking at it like a very practical home improvement knowing this will almost certainly be an expectation by the time we go to sell our home in 20 years.

That said, it totally depends on how much you drive. We use our Tesla a lot for my wife’s modest commute to work, running errands, etc. so this works for us. If we had longer commutes to work and/or were putting more miles on the car I agree with points above that you’d really need the faster charging at home.

We are putting in a ridiculously low amount of money into charging the car. Easily saving more than 120 a month compared to our BMW sedan that required premium gasoline. Our off peak (10 PM to 6 AM) is like 8 cents per kWh so lower than what I see some others sharing here. This is a factor as we think about cost of installing home charger. I think we’d make that money back quickly and - like I said - many home buyers will want/need this down the road so will easily recoup the investment at that time.

Possibly favorite thing about the Tesla thus far is the ability to schedule departure in the AM. Car is always warmed up and defrosted when we need it to be. When unscheduled, interior cabin temp will go from 20 degrees to 70 in probably 4-5 minutes. Very nice perk here in cold weather climate.

 

[besserheimerphat]

Our office just implemented pay-to-charge at work. It had been free, but it will now be $0.15/kWh.

 

[dmclone]

Our office just implemented pay-to-charge at work. It had been free, but it will now be $0.15/kWh.

Seems to be a fair price. Get rid of those people that just sit their car there all day just because it's free. That's one thing I like about superchargers, if you leave them plugged in once you're full, they will charge you.