Who sucked more?

[jbhtexas]

Wayne hands down.

Really??? WM finished 16-14. DM finished 4-7. WM won 37.5 % of his conference games. DM won 12.5% of his conference games. All the shortcomings that you mention about WM's last team (i.e underacheiving, bad schemes, blah, blah, blah) can be generalized and quite easily applied to DM's last team.

I think the poll results are quite amazing. The bottom line is wins and losses, and despite doing much better in wins and losses than DM, WM is deemed to have had the worst last season. WM was actually pretty close to playing in the NIT. DM was nowhere near post season play. I guess this is a testament to DM's ability to deflect attention from reality. In any case, both coaches needed to move on, and I'm glad ISU had/has the AD with the fortitude to make such changes.

 

[cycloneworld]

I wish people would stop with the "We were 4 plays from being winless last year" talk. You don't hear a lot of talk about the previous year where we were 4 plays from being 11-0.

That being said, I think both are about the same for me. I had high expectations for both, and both tanked...and tanked badly.

When was the last time we had something to cheer about as Iowa State fans in football and MBB? At least we had 1 year with Wayne in the Tournament...and actually won a game. That's the last thing I remember cheering about in the last several years.

 

[clonomaniac]

Why are we even COMPARING the two?

Wayne, to me, is not meant to be a D-1 coach.

Dan did not such as bad as you would think. The assistant coaches brought him down. Dan is a good man, he lives by his word and ethics. Wayne, on the other hand, has wasted the potentials of top two guards in the nation.

There shouldn't be any comparison between the two.

 

[jbhtexas]

Why are we even COMPARING the two?

Wayne, to me, is not meant to be a D-1 coach.

Dan did not such as bad as you would think. The assistant coaches brought him down. Dan is a good man, he lives by his word and ethics. Wayne, on the other hand, has wasted the potentials of top two guards in the nation.

There shouldn't be any comparison between the two.

Abso-flippin-lutely amazing... In DM's case, it was the assistant coaches' fault. In WM's case, he's wasn't meant to be a D-1 head coach.

You're right though, that when one coach goes 4-7 and the other goes 16-14, there shouldn't be any comparision......

 

[mj4cy]

Wow, we are some negative cyclone fans today ha! (i voted for wayne)

 

[CYdTracked]

You ever listen to a Wayne Morgan interview? I wondered if the guy was even in the same building sometimes usually John Walters and Eric Heft had to basically answer the questions for him. The guy had absolutely no insight on anything and watching the way his teams played it showed he was in over his head as a D-1 head coach. He already bombed at Long Beach State as a head coach on top of that. At least his assistant Damon Archibald gave some good insight on his weekly interview with Cotlar. Damon also has a job right now too and has worked for some pretty good programs. If it wasn't for Damon I wonder if we would have got some of the recruits we did or even won as many games as we did as Damon showed more coaching on the bench during the game than Morgan ever did.

I'm glad that era is gone and we have a guy like GMac on the sidelines that never stops coaching no matter the score.

 

[jbhtexas]

You ever listen to a Wayne Morgan interview? I wondered if the guy was even in the same building sometimes usually John Walters and Eric Heft had to basically answer the questions for him.

Yes, I did listen to many WM interviews, and I agree that WM was not a good interview and often gave no insight into the game. However, that is completely irrelevant to who had the worst last season.

16-14 vs. 4-7. I would have traded DM's slick interviews for a 6-5 season...

 

[darts180]

You ever listen to a Wayne Morgan interview? I wondered if the guy was even in the same building sometimes usually John Walters and Eric Heft had to basically answer the questions for him. The guy had absolutely no insight on anything and watching the way his teams played it showed he was in over his head as a D-1 head coach. He already bombed at Long Beach State as a head coach on top of that. At least his assistant Damon Archibald gave some good insight on his weekly interview with Cotlar. Damon also has a job right now too and has worked for some pretty good programs. If it wasn't for Damon I wonder if we would have got some of the recruits we did or even won as many games as we did as Damon showed more coaching on the bench during the game than Morgan ever did.

I'm glad that era is gone and we have a guy like GMac on the sidelines that never stops coaching no matter the score.

Look, one of the points that I made was that Wayne was bad on the radio, and that was a problem. However, to say that he was in over his head is unfair. He beat Kansas at Kansas when they were ranked number TWO in the nation, he won at Texas, hell he won AT Colorado (which Iowa State NEVER does historically). Had our football coach EVER won a big game against a ranked team??? In fact, if he ever had, we NEVER would have heard the end of it.

We don't know the stage in his life that Wayne is at. He built a new home just last year. Maybe he is done, maybe noone wants to hire him, we don't know that answer for sure. I do know that they have a special needs child, which may be another factor, again I don't know.

However, starting at his "resignment" press conference, Dan McCarney announced LOUD AND CLEAR that he was looking to coach again. I heard that out of his mouth MANY times the last two weeks that he was here. He tried very hard to position himself for the Minnesota job, he showed up at the Senior Bowl, he was turned down for a position job with a bad Tampa Bay team.

Please believe that I'm happy for him that he got a job. But your attempts to "spin" that he took a great job is laughable. Do you reaslize he went from the longest tenured coach in a BCS conference to a position coach at a school that has played D1 football for less than a decade is a glaring statement of how his coaching abilities are perceived nationally.

So maybe there are no opportunities out there for Wayne, or maybe he didn't take the first thing that was offered, like Mac. Again I don't know for sure.

 

[mike4cy]

:rolleyes5cz: LINK Wow I didn't realize just how bad Marty was as a head coach. 205-139-1 career, not to mention the losers that came up under him to be head coaches, what a bum.:rolleyes5cz:

No kidding. 14-2 with a close playoff loss to a seasoned Patriots team, the Chargers were terrible. I do realize that L.T. is a monster, but a FEW of those 14 wins had to have something to do with coaching.

 

[ICCYFAN]

I have thought about this many times, as to why it was easy to push a coach out the door, who had won actual big, important games in his 3rd year, but an unwillingness to admit continued shortcomings in another. I have to admit that there some unflattering, to say the least, possible answers.

I was just about to chastize you for "going there" but decided to vote first (for Dan of course). Then I saw the poll results, namely:

Dan 29
Wayne 81

I'm truly stunned by this poll and now you've got me wondering...:sad9cd:

 

[joepublic]

My favorite Wayne Morgan interview was on his call-in show when a caller asked him a question like: How do you score against a zone?

And Wayne proceeded to list the Ten Ways to Score Against a Zone like he had read it in some coaching textbook!

I knew it was going to eventually hit the fan after that.

 

[darts180]

Why are we even COMPARING the two?

Wayne, to me, is not meant to be a D-1 coach.

Dan did not such as bad as you would think. The assistant coaches brought him down. Dan is a good man, he lives by his word and ethics. Wayne, on the other hand, has wasted the potentials of top two guards in the nation.

There shouldn't be any comparison between the two.

What?!?!?!? Do you know each of them personally????

This is what I was talking about in my original post. I don't know Wayne personally, but just because Wayne didn't PR and spin himself doesn't mean that he is a bad person.

Look people have over and over on here taken shots at Wayne. If you want to criticize his coaching, then that is fine, I certainly think that he made mistakes. But then you talk about his final press conference, his players were there, and they were crying just as much as the football players for losing their coach. That fact was, and still is mocked by people on this site, and yet the football players were losing a second father, this screams of hypocrisy to me.

He took a program rocked to its foundation from the Larry scandal, and won some games. I continually hear that if it weren't for Dan, we could never have hired Gene. Yet Wayne gets no credit for allowing us to hire Greg. I think that there is an argument to be made that we never would have hired Greg, had Wayne not kept the program afloat during a tough time. In case you don't remember, NOONE wanted the job in 2003.

 

[darts180]

My favorite Wayne Morgan interview was on his call-in show when a caller asked him a question like: How do you score against a zone?

And Wayne proceeded to list the Ten Ways to Score Against a Zone like he had read it in some coaching textbook!

I knew it was going to eventually hit the fan after that.

But how is that different than throwing every meaningless statistic you can find to deflect attention away from, or having to take responsibility for, your team's actual performance???

Hey noone is ever going to become John Wooden by listening to Wayne Morgan, but listening to his call in show did not insult my intelligence.

 

[clonomaniac]

What?!?!?!? Do you know each of them personally????

This is what I was talking about in my original post. I don't know Wayne personally, but just because Wayne didn't PR and spin himself doesn't mean that he is a bad person.

Look people have over and over on here taken shots at Wayne. If you want to criticize his coaching, then that is fine, I certainly think that he made mistakes. But then you talk about his final press conference, his players were there, and they were crying just as much as the football players for losing their coach. That fact was, and still is mocked by people on this site, and yet the football players were losing a second father, this screams of hypocrisy to me.

He took a program rocked to its foundation from the Larry scandal, and won some games. I continually hear that if it weren't for Dan, we could never have hired Gene. Yet Wayne gets no credit for allowing us to hire Greg. I think that there is an argument to be made that we never would have hired Greg, had Wayne not kept the program afloat during a tough time. In case you don't remember, NOONE wanted the job in 2003.

FEW THINGS HERE

I CLEARLY STATED WAYNE IS NOT MEANT TO BE A D-1 COACH

I NEVER SAID IN MY POST WAYNE IS A BAD MAN

IN FACT WAYNE IS A SINCERE MAN, HIS PLAYERS ARE LOYAL, NEVER LET HIM DOWN - ONLY A GOOD PERSON CAN LEAD A GOOD TEAM, HAVING SAID THAT WAYNE MORGAN IS JUST NOT A "QUALITY" COACH FOR ANY D-1 SCHOOL.

WHEN LARRY'S JOB WAS UP FOR GRAB, WE SIMPLY DIDN'T HAVE A GOOD AD TO MAKE LARRY'S JOB APPEALING TO CANDIDATES. I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY BLAME OUR EX-AD FOR IT

FINALLY, RECHECK THE WORDS FEW TIMES BEFORE ATTACKING ANYONE'S REPLIES PLEASE.

 

[darts180]

FEW THINGS HERE

I CLEARLY STATED WAYNE IS NOT MEANT TO BE A D-1 COACH

I NEVER SAID IN MY POST WAYNE IS A BAD MAN

IN FACT WAYNE IS A SINCERE MAN, HIS PLAYERS ARE LOYAL, NEVER LET HIM DOWN - ONLY A GOOD PERSON CAN LEAD A GOOD TEAM, HAVING SAID THAT WAYNE MORGAN IS JUST NOT A "QUALITY" COACH FOR ANY D-1 SCHOOL.

WHEN LARRY'S JOB WAS UP FOR GRAB, WE SIMPLY DIDN'T HAVE A GOOD AD TO MAKE LARRY'S JOB APPEALING TO CANDIDATES. I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY BLAME OUR EX-AD FOR IT

FINALLY, RECHECK THE WORDS FEW TIMES BEFORE ATTACKING ANYONE'S REPLIES PLEASE.

I think that you should reread your original post as well. You said that Dan is a great man, and his assistants let him down, 86 times over 12 years, yet Wayne sucked as a coach (I am paraphrasing, but read it and maybe you will understand why I see it that way). See, I am trying to debate a point that I have been bothered by for some time. The perceptions that people seem to have of these two men.

I never claimed that Wayne was a good coach, in fact I think he was a fairly poor game coach. Yet, I have read many people post the same thing about Dan, and wanted him to still be the football coach. I said that I thought that, under the circumstances he inherited, Wayne did an admirable job. Conversely, I am not here to debate Dan McCarney's legacy either. I just have read people continually bash Wayne, yet Dan somehow is spared in people's eyes for essentially the same crimes (poor coaching, team quits, problems off the field/court, etc). I truly wonder why this is.

The numbers keep going up for Wayne, look at the poll. Yet he had a winning season his final year. Dan almost pulled an 0 for the conference for the second time in four years, but that isn't disappointing??? And sorry to say Cycloneworld, they were 4 plays from going winless, in the coaches 12th year.

And you were also right that they were 4 plays from going 10-1 the year before. However those plays weren't made. It seems that if it had been the basketball team in that circumstance, it would have been Wayne's fault, yet it seems that people want to blame Barney Cotton, Bret Culbertson, etc.

 

[Drive4cy]

I just have read people continually bash Wayne, yet Dan somehow is spared in people's eyes for essentially the same crimes (poor coaching, team quits, problems off the field/court, etc). I truly wonder why this is.

I've always wondered this myself. Wayne arguably did more in 3 years than Dan did in 12 years comparitively. Dan never beat anyone other than Iowa and down Nebraska teams. Wayne beat Texas twice, Kansas twice, had a 20win season (NIT final 4), and an NCAA tournament win in 3 years. If you read some of the posts on here you would think Wayne went 12-75 in 3 seasons and Mac was winning 8 games a year.

Talk about a double standard.

 

[cycloneworld]

Darts...did McCarney kick your dog or something?

 

[twojman]

Here is my reasoning for why there is a double standard between Wayne and Dan. The difference is the fanbase mentality.

The basketball program had some success under Orr, a little more success under Floyd, a lot of success under LE early on and then it came crashing down. The fanbase wanted a big name and lots of wins right away. Wayne was not the big name, but his first two seasons were by any standard a huge success considering the embarrassment the ISU basketball program was coming off of. Wayne's third season was not up to expectations and this was the excuse everyone was looking for to go for the bigger name coach.

In football, what kind of history has there been at ISU? Losing. Dan comes in and has one very nice season in 2000 (ISU lost 3 games and if I remember correctly, not competitive in any of them, very familiar of the Mac era.) and then a couple of .500 seasons and he is a football god at ISU. People were willing to accept .500 every couple of seasons because they were not used to winning and felt this is the best ISU can do. Luckily enough people realized this was not the case and shook that loser mentality that a good coach would not want to come here anyways.

My $.02 worth, anyone think I am close?

 

[clonomaniac]

I still say we shouldn't compare Dan with Wayne or Wayne with Dan. It's just not fair. It's not an apple to apple comparison. A lot of people will say Dan while others will say in Wayne's favor.

Personally I don't think Wayne is the man for the job he got paid for. Yes, he took us to NIT and NCAA - but that's just not enough! Give Dan the equivalent guys Wayne had for making it to a big 12 championship or a bowl game, Dan would take them to a bowl game (I don't care if it's in Shreveport or San Antonio) 5 out of 6 tries. I taped every single televised bb game last year, and I see no improvement from game # 1 to game # 20. There was no direction from Wayne in terms of utilizing the talents in hand and making a run for the conference standings and anything for that matter. Dan didn't do a good coaching job last year either but if you ask me I will say Dan can be a successful D-1 head coach and Wayne is anything but that.

 

[darts180]

Darts...did McCarney kick your dog or something?

This really has nothing to do with Dan's record, or anything else. I just think that there has been some unfair shots taken at Wayne over the past year. You know as well as I do how Wayne has been portrayed on this site, my goodness look at the title of this thread... And Wayne, despite a winning record, has three times as many votes as a coach whose team had a 9-27 conference record his last four years, and a coach whose team gave up nearly 100 points to KState, KU, and CU, considered the bottom teams in the league (besides us).

The point that I am trying to make here, and maybe I am not doing it effectively, is that it seems that it is OK to trash the legacy of a man who took the reigns of a scandal rocked program, that had a more divided fanbase than there was this Fall, and had some success. Yet his firing was applauded, while JP was villified in many circles for forcing a change in the football program. My goodness, I can attest to how bad the backlash was if you stated that you weren't happy with the football program.

I am not trying to sway anyone's opinions on either matter, I just would like to know why people think what they think.