Yes they were. That is what irks me. The game clock is stopped, he can run the baseline, Gabe pauses to pull up his arm sleeve and the ref started his count when Gabe stepped across the line, not when he had possession of the ball for throw in.
Weird call at the end of the game
- Thread starter Bigman38
- Start date
The refs forgot they were in Manhattan, Kansas and not Lawrence, Kansas.
That goes back to Dedric Willoughby against UCLA in the NCAA tournament in 1997 (Cameron $%@!ing Dollar.) We were trying to set a screen and draw a charge on the baseline inbounds but the count was very similar to yesterday and we got called for 5 seconds instead. That was pretty much Dedric's exacr line in the post-game.
Still, well played by JW.
Check out this video
Here is the rule:
Basketball Officiating Calls NCAA Rule applies here, was the timeout request properly not awarded? NCAA says that a player that is airborne and momentum takes him out of bounds shall not be granted a timeout. Was the player airborne and falling out of bounds at the time of the request? This is a very close situation. NF Rules does not have such a provision, but it happens fast.
Hef did say at the time, he did not think it was reviewable, but that also sounds like he is unsure if it is or not.
No way should KSU kept the ball there, it's OK to say the refs screwed up, but it not OK to then go forward and reward the team for that screwup. Kind of like the 3 pointier KU made while we were shooting free throws 10 years ago.
Looked up specifics of rules. It all hinges on control. Player control is while player is holding or dribbling the ball. There is team control while in player control; passing between offensive players or ball is at disposal of thrower in. Team control ends when the ball leaves shooter’s hand on try for goal and is not re-established until player control is established. My understanding is that there are three scenarios for Saturday's situation.
1. What should have happened. Grill shoots and misses. There is no player or team control while the ball bounces towards sideline, KSU player grabs it establishing player control, but not until airborne and heading out of bounds. KSU player yelling timeout prior to securing possession is ignored as no team control. KSU player calling timeout while airborne is ignored as not allowed by NCAA rules. KSU player lands out of bounds and ISU awarded the ball for inbound.
2. What should have been ruled with an inadvertent whistle. Same as above but official inadvertently blows whistle before KSU player secures control of the ball. Ball immediately becomes dead, thus allowing KSU to call timeout. Still don’t have team control so we have an alternating possession jump ball situation. KSU is granted and charged the timeout, and KSU ball out of bounds on alternating possession. KSU is out of timeouts now and arrow changes to ISU on inbounds.
3. What appears to have happened. Same as 2 except instead of dead ball alternating possession, official rules KSU had team control and doesn’t dock timeout or switch arrow (I can't figure that one out).
An inadvertent whistle is to resume play from point of whistle. At the time of the inadvertent whistle the ball was loose with neither team in control, thus the jump ball situation that should have been called. How the official determined that KSU had possession at the time of the inadvertent whistle, but THEN doesn't charge them with a timeout or rule them out of bounds if one ignores the not allowed timeout request . . . SMH.
1. What should have happened. Grill shoots and misses. There is no player or team control while the ball bounces towards sideline, KSU player grabs it establishing player control, but not until airborne and heading out of bounds. KSU player yelling timeout prior to securing possession is ignored as no team control. KSU player calling timeout while airborne is ignored as not allowed by NCAA rules. KSU player lands out of bounds and ISU awarded the ball for inbound.
2. What should have been ruled with an inadvertent whistle. Same as above but official inadvertently blows whistle before KSU player secures control of the ball. Ball immediately becomes dead, thus allowing KSU to call timeout. Still don’t have team control so we have an alternating possession jump ball situation. KSU is granted and charged the timeout, and KSU ball out of bounds on alternating possession. KSU is out of timeouts now and arrow changes to ISU on inbounds.
3. What appears to have happened. Same as 2 except instead of dead ball alternating possession, official rules KSU had team control and doesn’t dock timeout or switch arrow (I can't figure that one out).
An inadvertent whistle is to resume play from point of whistle. At the time of the inadvertent whistle the ball was loose with neither team in control, thus the jump ball situation that should have been called. How the official determined that KSU had possession at the time of the inadvertent whistle, but THEN doesn't charge them with a timeout or rule them out of bounds if one ignores the not allowed timeout request . . . SMH.
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This is why if you go back in this thread, I say that the Case Book, not rule book, is needed in this instance to get the call right. Guarantee that Kipp Kissinger has the case book, whether he has opened it ever, who knows.
Official Case Book printed every year helps everyone, Officials and coaches included, better understand the official rules.
The inadvertent whistle had no impact on the play and the ball definitely could have been awarded to ISU. I could also see KSU keeping the ball but a timeout taken away.
In no way should KSU have kept the ball and not have a timeout taken away. Kipp messed up and then compounded his poor decision by attempting to bait, Green and TJ.
Qwerty- See my above reply. This should be a Case Book decision to help apply the rules
Ok, but that's not the rule! If a ref feels the team is too slow starting the inbound, the ref must place the ball on the floor out of bounds, then start the count. We have all seen that happen the proper way. That's the rule.
Also, a ref can call time out if the ball is bouncing away from the player. We have all seen that also. But this ref just started counting as the ball rolled loose. That's an individual just wanting to make a call. Totally improper!
I agree. It looks like he started his count when Gabe stepped out of bounds, not when he procures possession of the ball. He is past the two count by the time Gabe straightens up after picking up the ball. AND then he still blows his whistle on his arm movement of the five count. He should have waited until he completes the five count arm movement THEN blows the whistle. Gabe released the ball on the movement of the five count arm thus the official's five count was NOT complete and should not have been blown.
10000% correct! That is why getting that timeout was so vital when Walker and Hunter caused the turnover and Walker grabbed the ball. Had we not called timeout, the possession arrow was pointing toward KSU!! Randy did NOT do his research. Uhhh - I mean, Randy just doing what Randy does.
That crew was certainly capable of giving the ball to KSU based on the possession arrow and not bothering to tell the scorekeeper to switch it. In either case I agree it was extremely important to call timeout there and not give them another chance to blow a call.
