Bad News for Protestants

KCbob...just a few questions...

1) Are you under the belief that EVERYBODY goes to purgatory regardless of whether they are saved or not?

2) Are you saying that people progress through purgatory at different rates?

3) Can a person that is not saved but has lived a good life "work" their way into heaven through purgatory?

4)Assuming there really is a purgatory, why wouldn't Jesus have spoken specifically about it and/or had a name for it? Does it make sense that heaven and hell are named, referred to frequently and described in detail but that there would be no actual dialogue about "purgatory"? That to me is the biggest reason for not believing that such a place exists.

I'm not entirely positive on the Catholic church's stance on purgatory, but I see purgatory more of a place of purification for those that believe in Jesus, but do not undergo the sacrament of confession and penance. There would also be different rates of "progression" based on things such as last confession, seriousness of sins (I know that's abstract, but I would say breaking a commandment is more "serious" than sins that aren't (such as homosexuality, which isn't explicitly touched upon there)).

For the third question, I would argue that it depends not on believing in Jesus as much as God. As in, Jews and Muslims for the most part beleive in the same God, but not in Jesus as the son of God. I would argue that based on the Old Testament and belief in Purgatory, they'd be in purgatory to purify themselves in a similar way as the Righteous non-believers in Dante's Purgatorio.

Your final question is more of faith/interpretations, and would be hard to convince you otherwise. It's also hard to say that he didn't talk about it, but it was in one of the Gospels that wasn't admitted into the bible. Saying what Jesus did, and did not say is a matter of faith, as none of us were there to hear what he did or did not say.
 
I'd sure love to know what copy of the Bible the pope is reading. Not one of my nor my wife's versions say anything about the attendance of a Catholic church being the key to salvation. All of ours talk about the belief of the death and resurrection of Christ and the personal acceptance of Him as your Savior. So why isn't he teaching this?

Just a question? you do realize where your bible came from..RIGHT?

Even Martin Luther admits to the NT canon or Trent. (which was a Catholic council)

Please don't tell me you are one of those people who think the bible fell out of the sky!

Answer my question...Who canonized the bible?

Lastly please provide me with some concrete documentation that the pope does not teach Salvation similar in the manner you mention.. Please use citations (Since you are speaking Catholic docrtrine with authority to accuse falshoods..and on behalf of religious expertise and from your hip can you please cite which article of the Catechism of the Catholic church that says Salvation does not come from Christ? How about Canon Law.. How about Church history? It shouldn't be too hard for you..since you are not Catholic you can only trace your church history back 3-400 years.)

Lesson :Pope Damasus Canonized the New Testament (you and your wife's bible pal)that you follow..Another question is why do you follow that canon? There are hundreds of Deutero-canonical books that could be added to the second canon of the bible...if you hate the pope so much why do you accept Damasus' new testament?



Don't get me started...I do "religion" for a living.
 
I'm not entirely positive on the Catholic church's stance on purgatory, but I see purgatory more of a place of purification for those that believe in Jesus, but do not undergo the sacrament of confession and penance. There would also be different rates of "progression" based on things such as last confession, seriousness of sins (I know that's abstract, but I would say breaking a commandment is more "serious" than sins that aren't (such as homosexuality, which isn't explicitly touched upon there)).

Point blank you are totally wrong...Purgatory is a process of purification. For those who are already saved. PERIOD nothing more nothing less. The Catholic church teaches only that OFFICIALLY. Your mention of confession is wrong due to the aspect of Mortal Sin. Which is basically rejection of God and Jesus.(Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59, Matt. 5:48,Matt. 12:32,Luke 12:47-48,Luke 16:19-31,2 Tim. 1:16-18,Rev. 21:27 etc. etc.)

The progession stuff you mention is not Catholic doctrine and quite honestly as a Cleric this is the first place I have heard of this kind of thing in real life..It sounds like Dante..which is not Catholic doctrine but secular poetry. it is obvious you are not in tune with officialy Catholic teaching...which I am now inclned to ask you to refrain from spreading incorrect information. I wouldn't expect one to spread errors about People of the Jewish faith...nor of poeople of other races.
 
Just a question? you do realize where your bible came from..RIGHT?

Even Martin Luther admits to the NT canon or Trent. (which was a Catholic council)

Please don't tell me you are one of those people who think the bible fell out of the sky!

Answer my question...Who canonized the bible?

Lastly please provide me with some concrete documentation that the pope does not teach Salvation similar in the manner you mention.. Please use citations (Since you are speaking Catholic docrtrine with authority to accuse falshoods..and on behalf of religious expertise and from your hip can you please cite which article of the Catechism of the Catholic church that says Salvation does not come from Christ? How about Canon Law.. How about Church history? It shouldn't be too hard for you..since you are not Catholic you can only trace your church history back 3-400 years.)

Lesson :Pope Damasus Canonized the New Testament (you and your wife's bible pal)that you follow..Another question is why do you follow that canon? There are hundreds of Deutero-canonical books that could be added to the second canon of the bible...if you hate the pope so much why do you accept Damasus' new testament?



Don't get me started...I do "religion" for a living.

Point blank you are totally wrong...Purgatory is a process of purification. For those who are already saved. PERIOD nothing more nothing less. The Catholic church teaches only that OFFICIALLY. Your mention of confession is wrong due to the aspect of Mortal Sin. Which is basically rejection of God and Jesus.(Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59, Matt. 5:48,Matt. 12:32,Luke 12:47-48,Luke 16:19-31,2 Tim. 1:16-18,Rev. 21:27 etc. etc.)

The progession stuff you mention is not Catholic doctrine and quite honestly as a Cleric this is the first place I have heard of this kind of thing in real life..It sounds like Dante..which is not Catholic doctrine but secular poetry. it is obvious you are not in tune with officialy Catholic teaching...which I am now inclned to ask you to refrain from spreading incorrect information. I wouldn't expect one to spread errors about People of the Jewish faith...nor of poeople of other races.

So, flyhighcy, this "religion" that you "do" for a living... does it teach anything about compassion, humility, and treating other people (especially those who may disagree with you) with respect? Because if it does, I surely can't tell from the blistering and insulting tone you use to berate the people who are trying to engage in a civilized discussion on this thread. :no6xn:
 
KCbob...just a few questions...

Since this was originally addressed to me I will answer it based on my understanding of Catholic doctrine.

1) Are you under the belief that EVERYBODY goes to purgatory regardless of whether they are saved or not?

3) Can a person that is not saved but has lived a good life "work" their way into heaven through purgatory?

There is a saved/not saved decision before Purgatory because Purgatory is for the saved who die with some imperfections or attachments to lesser sins. Such persons would not be cut off forever from God but would need further "purification" (what we Catholics traditionally call Purgatory) to stand in God's presence where nothing unclean shall enter (Revelation 21:27). Just declaring to be clean is not enough, we must actually be clean.

2) Are you saying that people progress through purgatory at different rates?

To be honest the exact nature of Purgatory is unclear but the Catholic Church does not teach that it is a "place" like the earth or moon because those in Purgatory are spirits. Nor does the Church teach that there is a physical fire. The Catholic Church does not know, nor anyone for that matter, who might need Purgatory and since those in Purgatory are beyond earth's space and time it is not possible to know "how long" anyone might be there. What the Church does believe is that these spirits are not beyond our reach, that they can be helped by our prayers.

4)Assuming there really is a purgatory, why wouldn't Jesus have spoken specifically about it and/or had a name for it? Does it make sense that heaven and hell are named, referred to frequently and described in detail but that there would be no actual dialogue about "purgatory"? That to me is the biggest reason for not believing that such a place exists.

(Sigh) The verses I quoted, and others, ARE an actual dialogue about Purgatory, but it is not specifically named that in the Bible. Neither are the Trinity and the Incarnation "named" in the Bible by the way. Try to think about Purgatory this way, God's mercy extends even beyond death!

During my studies I always try and find out from the Bible or other writings just what the earliest Christians did, the ones that knew Jesus the Christ or the Apostles personally. I am driven by John 21:25, there are many other things that Jesus did ..., that is not in the Bible. Well here are just a few examples of what the earliest Christians did; the earliest Christians during the persecutions inscribed prayers for the dead in the Catacombs. Some of the earliest Christian writings like the "Acts of Paul and Thecla" in the second century included prayers for the dead. Finally, St. Monica, the mother of St. Augustine, in the fourth century asked her son to remember her soul while he was saying Mass. None of the early Church writings ever offered any discourse on praying for the dead. The Bible also includes prayers for the dead; 2 Timothy 1:18 and 2 Maccabees 12:38-46.

In a heaven and hell only theology why pray for the dead? Those in heaven would not need our prayers and those in Hell would be beyond our prayers. Purgatory does not disparage the sacrifice of the Cross I feel it amplifies it. It shows a loving God, a forgiving God, a God of second chances, a God who loves us so much that he does not want to go to Hell for our sinful life so His mercy even extends beyond our death if we have imperfections remaining! His love, saved by passing through fire, consumes our imperfections and makes us perfectly clean to stand in his presence, because nothing unclean shall enter.
 
I just found out I'll be spending eternity in hell.

Pope: Other Christians not true churches - Yahoo! News

At first I thought, "Aw it's just one guys opinion", but it turns out the Pope is infallible. Bummer. :sad9cd:

This was published in the KC Star today and is good reading. A word of caution Christians should never really rely on secular lame stream media for any commentary on Christianity. This article is good because it quotes local Catholics including our area Bishops.

www.kansascity.com | 07/13/2007 | Local Catholics say many Protestants misunderstand recent Vatican document

There is hope for you CloneFan65! :biggrin9gp: from the article,

“The Second Vatican Council said that people who are not Christians, people of other religions, even those who don’t have a religion and never learned about Christ and seek to live a good life according to the natural law and well-informed conscience, can be saved,” said Bishop Robert W. Finn of the Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph.
 
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Purgatopry is a strange concept. You have to burn or suffer somehow to cleanse yourself by waiting in line so you are good enough to get to heaven. Then you are good enough for heaven.

Yet, did not the previous Popes embellish and develop the scenario as reinforcement? Missing Sunday church seems to be put on a par with other really major sins. Logic dictates that we are practicing this religion on some really starnge assumptions that we must accept them since we are t5old to do so. Hmmmm. I sort of like the concept of be a good person, treat others right, and accept God countds most. To miss Church and make other items null and void is a little extreme, especially since the service usuallly yamounts to repetition. and reinforcement

Hmmm. Won't even ask about the donation to the Sunday platter versus giving the money directly to those people in need. No wonder religion has such a tough sell. It needs reinforcement to toe the line?

And what about the inquisition? That was charitable.

I am not agnostic. I just wonder about these things.
 
I thought Jesus was pretty clear as to His thoughts on the established church of His time, and how it had become more about the church than about God, and how those in authority were portraying themselves as holy. I'm not as well studied as most who have posted on this subject, but taking one line, "upon this rock I will build my church" and translating into what they have, is a less sturdy argument than taking many other things He said literally.

And since I cannot find the particular passage, forgive me if I paraphrase a little. Didn't Jesus also say, "where two or more are gathered together in my name, I will be among them"?
 
To Wesley and Cyclonepride and others,

I have lots of stamina and will continue this dialogue as long as we keep it civil and without bashing. Bur first things first, let us deal with the original thread topic and Purgatory. The original thread topic I deal with and copy here and there are multiple insightful entries on Purgatory if I don't say so myself :biggrin9gp:. Then we can get to your posts below and other topics if desired.

This was published in the KC Star today and is good reading. A word of caution, Christians should never really rely on secular lame stream media for any commentary on Christianity. This article is good because it quotes local Catholics including our area Bishops.

www.kansascity.com | 07/13/2007 | Local Catholics say many Protestants misunderstand recent Vatican document

There is hope for you CloneFan65! :biggrin9gp: from the article,

“The Second Vatican Council said that people who are not Christians, people of other religions, even those who don’t have a religion and never learned about Christ and seek to live a good life according to the natural law and well-informed conscience, can be saved,â€￾ said Bishop Robert W. Finn of the Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph.


Purgatopry is a strange concept. You have to burn or suffer somehow to cleanse yourself by waiting in line so you are good enough to get to heaven. Then you are good enough for heaven.

Yet, did not the previous Popes embellish and develop the scenario as reinforcement? Missing Sunday church seems to be put on a par with other really major sins. Logic dictates that we are practicing this religion on some really starnge assumptions that we must accept them since we are t5old to do so. Hmmmm. I sort of like the concept of be a good person, treat others right, and accept God countds most. To miss Church and make other items null and void is a little extreme, especially since the service usuallly yamounts to repetition. and reinforcement

Hmmm. Won't even ask about the donation to the Sunday platter versus giving the money directly to those people in need. No wonder religion has such a tough sell. It needs reinforcement to toe the line?

And what about the inquisition? That was charitable.

I am not agnostic. I just wonder about these things.


I thought Jesus was pretty clear as to His thoughts on the established church of His time, and how it had become more about the church than about God, and how those in authority were portraying themselves as holy. I'm not as well studied as most who have posted on this subject, but taking one line, "upon this rock I will build my church" and translating into what they have, is a less sturdy argument than taking many other things He said literally.

And since I cannot find the particular passage, forgive me if I paraphrase a little. Didn't Jesus also say, "where two or more are gathered together in my name, I will be among them"?
 
Point blank you are totally wrong...Purgatory is a process of purification. For those who are already saved. PERIOD nothing more nothing less. The Catholic church teaches only that OFFICIALLY. Your mention of confession is wrong due to the aspect of Mortal Sin. Which is basically rejection of God and Jesus.(Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59, Matt. 5:48,Matt. 12:32,Luke 12:47-48,Luke 16:19-31,2 Tim. 1:16-18,Rev. 21:27 etc. etc.)

The progession stuff you mention is not Catholic doctrine and quite honestly as a Cleric this is the first place I have heard of this kind of thing in real life..It sounds like Dante..which is not Catholic doctrine but secular poetry. it is obvious you are not in tune with officialy Catholic teaching...which I am now inclned to ask you to refrain from spreading incorrect information. I wouldn't expect one to spread errors about People of the Jewish faith...nor of poeople of other races.

Well, excuse me mr. high and mighty. I guess maybe the opening line of my post where I said I wasn't positive on the Catholic church's position on purgatory, and my own interpretation/idea on what it was should have been highlighted, underlined, starred and circled.:rolleyes5cz:

By the way, Dante wrote Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradisio to convert people to Catholocism/Christianity.
 

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