When do you think you will buy a 100% pure electric vehicle?

[BCClone]

They're selling too few of them and blaming that as a demand issue. That's what Ford says, but the stats don't back that up. There's plenty of demand for EVs, and plenty of demand for EV trucks -- such as Rivian outselling them straight up.

If they want to sell more, they need to be priced lower. All they're doing now is artificially keeping the supply low, keeping the sale prices high, and claiming demand is poor.

Do they have a better profit margin on n EVs or on what they have rolling down the lines now? You may think they are taking in the dough but if they can make more total dollars in something else, that is what they will run.

The excursion is an example. They made more selling cab and chassis than excursions. So they killed off that line and went c and c’s. Throw in what union requirements may be(may not be able to change peoples jobs until a contract change) and maybe that would create enough dead money that other items make more sense.

There are way more moving parts than just a basic demand for an item when working with the auto industry.

 

[MeowingCows]

Do they have a better profit margin on n EVs or on what they have rolling down the lines now? You may think they are taking in the dough but if they can make more total dollars in something else, that is what they will run.

The excursion is an example. They made more selling cab and chassis than excursions. So they killed off that line and went c and c’s. Throw in what union requirements may be(may not be able to change peoples jobs until a contract change) and maybe that would create enough dead money that other items make more sense.

There are way more moving parts than just a basic demand for an item when working with the auto industry.

I think it's dumb that Ford is blaming consumers for not demanding their products enough. That's the simplest take I can make on it. They are investing tons and tons of money into this initiative, but now are mad that they aren't selling the volume they hoped for -- and thus are taking away production to compensate, then raising prices for what's left over.

The problem isn't that consumers don't want EV trucks, or EVs at all. There's plenty of demand. The problem is that consumers specifically don't want Lightnings. That's not a consumer problem, that's a Ford problem. The reason they aren't selling the volume they hoped for, is strictly because of the price they're selling them at -- they closely compare in price to superior or more fashionable competitors.

 

[BCClone]

I think it's dumb that Ford is blaming consumers for not demanding their products enough. That's the simplest take I can make on it. They are investing tons and tons of money into this initiative, but now are mad that they aren't selling the volume they hoped for -- and thus are taking away production to compensate, then raising prices for what's left over.

The problem isn't that consumers don't want EV trucks, or EVs at all. There's plenty of demand. The problem is that consumers specifically don't want Lightnings. That's not a consumer problem, that's a Ford problem. The reason they aren't selling the volume they hoped for, is strictly because of the price they're selling them at -- they closely compare in price to superior or more fashionable competitors.

Wait, so do consumers want their product or not? You have said both sides on this.

 

[MeowingCows]

Wait, so do consumers want their product or not? You have said both sides on this.

I haven't said both -- you aren't listening, at all. 14 consumers buying a product doesn't mean consumers want them overall.

Too few of them do, which Ford claims is why they are reducing production of them.

So, by and large, no they don't. A select few want them. The product itself is not selling well, and not selling to Ford's own expectations, based on the level of investment they've put into it. So they're reducing availability while blaming market conditions for that problem.

Sales of other EV trucks show it's not a market condition problem.

 

[BCClone]

I haven't said both -- you aren't listening, at all. 14 consumers buying a product doesn't mean consumers want them overall.

Too few of them do, which Ford claims is why they are reducing production of them.

So, by and large, no they don't. A select few want them. The product itself is not selling well, and not selling to Ford's own expectations, based on the level of investment they've put into it. So they're reducing availability while blaming market conditions for that problem.

Sales of other EV trucks show it's not a market condition problem.

View attachment 123179

What other options are out there. Ford sold 12k last year. Rivian sold 16k last year and hummer was under 1k. Were there other options out there?

What did ford expect to sell?

 

[MeowingCows]

What other options are out there. Ford sold 12k last year. Rivian sold 16k last year and hummer was under 1k. Were there other options out there?

What did ford expect to sell?

Ford said their production goal for 2023 was 150,000 Lightnings. Didn't even get to a tenth of that and now are reducing them further. Instead, they were outsold by a competitor looking for a completely different, upscale market.

Overall, market is small now, but with two more major competitions entering shortly: Tesla and GM. Stellantis won't be far behind. It's showing signs of growth. All of these makes clearly believe there's a market to be tapped into. Ford failed to do so at a high level and their commentary puts that on the consumers, not themselves. That's an asinine viewpoint.

Full disclosure: I don't expect new offerings to be much cheaper, either. At the end of the day, competition still is a major driver of prices, and there's no low-price competition (which I what I raised earlier about there being no small truck EV options yet). The baseline for these things is incredibly high. As a whole of EVs, cheaper/reasonably priced ones sell very well.

 

[ISUTex]

Again, don't buy the 15 year old used EV if you don't want to.

Again, I'm not going to. A lot of people aren't going to. To me that's an issue for people who would be trying to sell their EVs after a few years. Why spend 70-100 grand for a car? Especially when it will need a 20 grand battery replacement after a few years.

 

[cycloneG]

Again, I'm not going to. A lot of people aren't going to. To me that's an issue for people who would be trying to sell their EVs after a few years. Why spend 70-100 grand for a car? Especially when it will need a 20 grand battery replacement after a few years.

If that's a concern, don't buy one. Plenty of people are buying them and don't have this concern.

 

[HFCS]

I haven't said both -- you aren't listening, at all. 14 consumers buying a product doesn't mean consumers want them overall.

Too few of them do, which Ford claims is why they are reducing production of them.

So, by and large, no they don't. A select few want them. The product itself is not selling well, and not selling to Ford's own expectations, based on the level of investment they've put into it. So they're reducing availability while blaming market conditions for that problem.

Sales of other EV trucks show it's not a market condition problem.

View attachment 123179

Rivian is definitely becoming common in American west mountain areas. It's a luxury purchase that not everyone can afford but people are very obviously starting to choose it over the other equally expensive ICE SUVs that actually cost more because they have similar sticker price and then cost 5x to 2x as much to fuel depending on the state. It doesn't get crazy bitter cold in a lot of these snowy areas so they probably avoided the freakout that week the entire midwest was under zero degrees.

In the fall especially I spend a ton of time in Sierras and they were so common this year including at trailheads and camp sites. They are probably eating into Jeep and Suburu sales as well as larger SUV sales because Wranglers and Subarus are the most common cars in those areas. There's one mountain town I visit a lot that's only 90 miles away and we laugh at how 80% of the cars are Subaru.

 

[MeowingCows]

Again, I'm not going to. A lot of people aren't going to. To me that's an issue for people who would be trying to sell their EVs after a few years. Why spend 70-100 grand for a car? Especially when it will need a 20 grand battery replacement after a few years.

****, people do that for trucks and SUVs now without giving a second thought. Average price of any new car now is close to $50k. If you're the guy who only buys 10 year old beaters for $3,000 each car, then this isn't the place for you.

The average road age of vehicles right now is ~12 years, and owners of those vehicles keep them an average of about 6 years. People, typically, cycle through cars fairly regularly. They often change cars well within that car's useful life.

 

[cycloneG]

Nissan exec: “Almost all of the EV batteries we’ve made are still in cars”

Among the never-ending flood of “Don’t get me wrong—I love electric vehicles, but...” articles and posts, we read dire warnings that EV batteries will wear out in a few years, making the cars worthless, and that they can’t be recycled. Above: A Nissan Leaf at a home charging station. Photo...

evannex.com

Among the never-ending flood of “Don’t get me wrong—I love electric vehicles, but...” articles and posts, we read dire warnings that EV batteries will wear out in a few years, making the cars worthless, and that they can’t be recycled.

Oddly enough, the citizen journalists who write these pieces never seem to cite any sources for their helpful information about battery life. What do the people who work for automakers who’ve actually been selling EVs have to say about the issue?

Well, as Nissan’s UK Marketing Director Nic Thomas recently told Forbes, “Almost all of the [EV] batteries we’ve ever made are still in cars, and we’ve been selling electric cars for 12 years.”

The much-predicted glut of obsolete EV batteries has not materialized, despite the fervent hopes of the anti-EV crowd. As Carlton Reid explains in a recent Forbes article, unlike phones or laptops, EVs have sophisticated battery management systems (BMS) that are designed to maximize battery life. In the US, automotive battery packs are warranted against failure for 8 years or 100,000 miles by federal law, and industry experts expect most battery packs to last much longer than that. (Battery failure and battery degradation are two different things—all batteries lose capacity over time, and some drivers may find the gradual reduction in range unsatisfactory.)

“We haven’t got a great big stock of batteries that we can convert into something else,” said Thomas. “It’s the complete opposite of what people feared when we first launched EVs—that the batteries would only last a short time.” Many EV batteries may outlast their vehicles, then enjoy a second life in a stationary storage application before finally being recycled. “At the end of the vehicle’s life—15 or 20 years down the road—you take the battery out of the car, and it’s still healthy, with perhaps 60 or 70% of usable charge.”

 

[CascadeClone]

“We haven’t got a great big stock of batteries that we can convert into something else,” said Thomas. “It’s the complete opposite of what people feared when we first launched EVs—that the batteries would only last a short time.” Many EV batteries may outlast their vehicles, then enjoy a second life in a stationary storage application before finally being recycled. “At the end of the vehicle’s life—15 or 20 years down the road—you take the battery out of the car, and it’s still healthy, with perhaps 60 or 70% of usable charge.”

I will have to buy a totaled EV at some point, and turn the batteries into additional storage for the home solar! Neat!

 

[BryceC]

Again, I'm not going to. A lot of people aren't going to. To me that's an issue for people who would be trying to sell their EVs after a few years. Why spend 70-100 grand for a car? Especially when it will need a 20 grand battery replacement after a few years.

Good question. You can buy a Tesla Model 3 for 40k. That's pretty in line with all new vehicles at this point.

 

[IcSyU]

Again, I'm not going to. A lot of people aren't going to. To me that's an issue for people who would be trying to sell their EVs after a few years. Why spend 70-100 grand for a car? Especially when it will need a 20 grand battery replacement after a few years.

Define a "few" years. You're just 100% misrepresenting. Several would be a much better word but doesn't fit the story you're trying to tell.

 

[BoxsterCy]

I will have to buy a totaled EV at some point, and turn the batteries into additional storage for the home solar! Neat!

Cousin plans to do that with his Lightning now after he gets his solar set up. To be clear he plans to just use the truck as is for backup battery storage, he's not scrapping the truck! As it is he has a built in backup for power outages.

 

[BoxsterCy]

Seems time for another "Don't Cave This" reminder.

Also, some of you can back off the personal arguments, some of those have run there course....let it go. And a few who are just spamming the thread while have no actual interest in EV at all can probably find something better to do.

 

[MeowingCows]

Nissan exec: “Almost all of the EV batteries we’ve made are still in cars”

Among the never-ending flood of “Don’t get me wrong—I love electric vehicles, but...” articles and posts, we read dire warnings that EV batteries will wear out in a few years, making the cars worthless, and that they can’t be recycled. Above: A Nissan Leaf at a home charging station. Photo...

evannex.com

Among the never-ending flood of “Don’t get me wrong—I love electric vehicles, but...” articles and posts, we read dire warnings that EV batteries will wear out in a few years, making the cars worthless, and that they can’t be recycled.

Oddly enough, the citizen journalists who write these pieces never seem to cite any sources for their helpful information about battery life. What do the people who work for automakers who’ve actually been selling EVs have to say about the issue?

Well, as Nissan’s UK Marketing Director Nic Thomas recently told Forbes, “Almost all of the [EV] batteries we’ve ever made are still in cars, and we’ve been selling electric cars for 12 years.”

The much-predicted glut of obsolete EV batteries has not materialized, despite the fervent hopes of the anti-EV crowd. As Carlton Reid explains in a recent Forbes article, unlike phones or laptops, EVs have sophisticated battery management systems (BMS) that are designed to maximize battery life. In the US, automotive battery packs are warranted against failure for 8 years or 100,000 miles by federal law, and industry experts expect most battery packs to last much longer than that. (Battery failure and battery degradation are two different things—all batteries lose capacity over time, and some drivers may find the gradual reduction in range unsatisfactory.)

“We haven’t got a great big stock of batteries that we can convert into something else,” said Thomas. “It’s the complete opposite of what people feared when we first launched EVs—that the batteries would only last a short time.” Many EV batteries may outlast their vehicles, then enjoy a second life in a stationary storage application before finally being recycled. “At the end of the vehicle’s life—15 or 20 years down the road—you take the battery out of the car, and it’s still healthy, with perhaps 60 or 70% of usable charge.”

That's actually something I wondered about -- the capabilities of batteries that no longer have a home inside a vehicle. It's still just a battery at the end of the day, and holds plenty of energy. There's surely going to be ways developed over time to retrofit into homes or other applications. Fascinating.

 

[isucy86]

They're pricing the damn things based on perceived demand, as well as trying to double-dip on baking the EV tax credit into the sale price. Dealers have almost 0 inventory of them, since Ford barely produces them, so when they do obtain one -- price is sky high on the lot. On top of Ford just straight up raising the MSRPs. It's not the $40K-ish truck that was initially promised and advertised.

It’s No Mystery Why the F-150 Lightning EV Isn’t Selling Like Ford Hoped

Ford knows the reason: high base prices are a barrier to entry. And it has no one to blame but itself.

www.motortrend.com

Then they cut back production of them and blame the lack of sales on "minimal interest in EVs" when that couldn't possibly be farther from the truth. Their EV truck costs too much to make sense to buy. Lightning sales were dropping heavily towards the end of 2023, meanwhile, R1T sales were skyrocketing. It doesn't get more clear than that. Ford is pricing like a luxury product and trying to sell it to consumers not in that market.

What your saying was very true during the 2020-22 time period and also applies to ICE vehicles when material shortages reduced the supply of cars. There are dealers that took advantages of short supply and normal demand to mark vehicles above MSRP. Some dealerships got greedy, but they also had fixed costs to cover and limited supply of new cars.

But since then, MSRP has gone up 40%+ for many vehicles because of rise in cost to build vehicles (materials & labor). Plus we have seen a sharp rise in interest rates, which not only impacts consumers but dealership floor plan costs.

From everything I've read/watched it sounds like the auto industry is about to go through a pretty big shakeup, because of reliance on high MSRP vehicles to prop up margins and dealerships being underwater on trade-in inventory. Neither is great in market where interest rates are at 20 year highs.

 

[dmclone]

I was just reading how Stellantis (Dodge, chrysler, Jeep,etc) is having a lot of trouble selling cars lately. They've improved a lot over the years on their vehicles but they just wait so long for the updates.

It's not a surprise that so many people are fighting for EV's to fail when you see how many people are employed at dealerships. Once these dealerships move to EV's, they'll be able to get rid of 1/2 their staff. Then how many of the 150k convenience stores will be able to survive, when they no longer sell fuel?

 

[nfrine]

Then how many of the 150k convenience stores will be able to survive, when they no longer sell fuel?

There will be a lot more hoks on the streets and under the bridges.