F*CK IOWA

[Cyhig]

Judgement

I want to make sure that this does not happen again in the future, you are correct it cannot change anything from the EIU or this NW/Wisconsin game from a few years ago. Why make the officials make a judgement ruling did he wave his hand or was he just running to the ball? Make it clear, you want protection for a fair catch, it has to be above your head, otherwise it's a free ball. If the near official sees the hand up, he is therefore trained to blow his whistle after the ball is caught. It's an easy fix, hell you could do it this week and use it next weekend if you wanted. HS officials get letters from the state all the time about clarifying a rule or telling them this is how they want this called in the future, so does the schools. This is not a big deal to change, but if it stops confusion on whether a fair catch was called or not this would be an easy way to fix it.

There are judgement plays that are reviewable all the time though. Most notably if a catch was made and where a person was tackled. The rule currently in place is clear: don’t wave your arms if you are a punt returner. If you do wave your arms, the play will be treated as a fair catch. It’s a pretty simple rule. It’s a rare rule since most punt returners won’t field the ball when they wave their arms. So it’s really not a rule to get all bent out of shape

 

[jcf817]

Then we agree and everyones happy!

Except Hawk fans. They don't deserve it.

 

[NorthCyd]

A punt is live. That's why the rules about illegal touching and recovery by the kicking team use the phrase "the ball becomes dead."

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

No it isn't a live ball. Not until it's touched by the return team. Here's how you can tell. During a punt, if the receiving team doesn't call for a fair catch and doesn't make an attempt to field the ball, can the kicking team take possession?
Nope. They can only down it, ergo it's a dead ball. On a kickoff the kicking team can take possession of the ball (provided it travels more than 10 yards) without the receiving team having touched it. That's a live ball. A punt is not.

A punt is a live ball until it either is touched down by the kicking team or touched by the receiving team. The kicking team cannot advance a punted ball unless it has been touched by the kicking team first.
That is why you see officials waiting until the ball is downed by the kicking team to blow their whistle stopping the clock.
If it was a dead ball, why is the clock still running after the kick returner has gotten out of the way, reason it does not become dead until it either cross the goal line for a touchback or is downed, thereby stopping the clock.

 

[Mr Janny]

A punt is live. That's why the rules about illegal touching and recovery by the kicking team use the phrase "the ball becomes dead."

No it isn't. If it's a live ball, why can't the kicking team recover it without it first being touched by the receiving team?
The receiving team doesn't have to put anyone back to receive. They can just let it go, no fair catch. No attempt to recover. It's dead as soon as it is kicked, and doesn't become live until the receiving team touches it.

 

[NWICY]

Damn. You'd have thought they lost the national championship instead of a meaningless game that won't affect them winning the B1G Ten West title.

Maxwell on max and Amy on who this morning tried calling it one of Iowa’s most important games. He was big in the spin on it.

 

[theshadow]

No it isn't. If it's a live ball, why can't the kicking team recover it without it first being touched by the receiving team?
The receiving team doesn't have to put anyone back to receive. They can just let it go, no fair catch. No attempt to recover. It's dead as soon as it is kicked, and doesn't become live until the receiving team touches it.

You're still the wrong way around on it. The ball isn't dead just because the kicking team can't do anything with it.

"If a player of the kicking team catches or recovers a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone, the ball becomes dead."

"illegal touching, a violation that, when the ball becomes dead, gives the receiving team the privilege of taking the ball at the spot of the violation."

"If a scrimmage kick goes out of bounds between the goal lines, or if it comes to rest inbounds and no player attempts to secure it, the ball becomes dead and belongs to the receiving team at the dead-ball spot."

 

[CRcyclone6]

If this happened in the 1st quarter, no one would care

SCORE MORE THAN 1O POINTS. PUT UP MORE THAN 125 YARDS IN A GAME. And then you can complain. You still only had to move the ball 25 yards to kick a winning field goal! Iowa has been on the opposite side of 95 percent of these calls that swing games for most of Kirks career. Luckiest, most overrated, Fake ID football program in America has one call that goes against them and the world is ending.

12 second half yards!

 

[Mr Janny]

A punt is a live ball until it either is touched down by the kicking team or touched by the receiving team. The kicking team cannot advance a punted ball unless it has been touched by the kicking team first.
That is why you see officials waiting until the ball is downed by the kicking team to blow their whistle stopping the clock.
If it was a dead ball, why is the clock still running after the kick returner has gotten out of the way, reason it does not become dead until it either cross the goal line for a touchback or is downed, thereby stopping the clock.

No idea what you're trying to say here. Are you sure there's not a typo in there? The kicking team can't advance the ball unless it's been touched by the kicking team? That doesn't make sense. They've already touched it by nature of the punter's foot touching the ball.

But it's immaterial. The main point is pretty simple.

A live ball can be possessed or advanced by either team. Example: a fumble or a kickoff

A punt cannot be possessed or advanced by the kicking team unless the receiving team touches it first.

Therefore, a punt is not live until that condition is met.

Now to complicate things, you've got the muff rule where if the receiving team attempts to field the punt, but drops it, the ball can be possessed by the kicking team, but not advanced. But that's only further proof that a punted ball is not the same thing as a live ball in that it has specific conditions that make it recoverable by the kicking team.

 

[Mr Janny]

You're still the wrong way around on it. The ball isn't dead just because the kicking team can't do anything with it.

"If a player of the kicking team catches or recovers a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone, the ball becomes dead."

"illegal touching, a violation that, when the ball becomes dead, gives the receiving team the privilege of taking the ball at the spot of the violation."

"If a scrimmage kick goes out of bounds between the goal lines, or if it comes to rest inbounds and no player attempts to secure it, the ball becomes dead and belongs to the receiving team at the dead-ball spot."

Your definition of a live ball is wrong. A live ball can be picked up and possessed by either team. A punt is not that unless specific conditions are met. Until those conditions are satisfied it's a dead ball.

 

[statsaholic]

Don't throw an interception and Iowa still had a good chance to win the game

No it isn't a live ball. Not until it's touched by the return team. Here's how you can tell. During a punt, if the receiving team doesn't call for a fair catch and doesn't make an attempt to field the ball, can the kicking team take possession?
Nope. They can only down it, ergo it's a dead ball. On a kickoff the kicking team can take possession of the ball (provided it travels more than 10 yards) without the receiving team having touched it. That's a live ball. A punt is not.

The ball becomes live at the snap. With what you are saying, a snap on a planned punt that goes over the punter's head out of the end zone would be a dead ball... wrong.

 

[theshadow]

Your definition of a live ball is wrong. A live ball can be picked up and possessed by either team. A punt is not that unless specific conditions are met. Until those conditions are satisfied it's a dead ball.

According to the NCAA, a live ball is a ball that's in play. No more, no less. Again, that's why all of their rules regarding the kicking team and punts use the phrase "the ball becomes dead."

Live Ball
ARTICLE 1. A live ball is a ball in play. A pass, kick or fumble that has not yet touched the ground is a live ball in flight.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

Judgement

There are judgement plays that are reviewable all the time though. Most notably if a catch was made and where a person was tackled. The rule currently in place is clear: don’t wave your arms if you are a punt returner. If you do wave your arms, the play will be treated as a fair catch. It’s a pretty simple rule. It’s a rare rule since most punt returners won’t field the ball when they wave their arms. So it’s really not a rule to get all bent out of shape

I agree that plays are reviewed all the time, but if this is such as simple rule, then why did the near official not blow his whistle and stop the play the moment the EIU kid touched and had control of the ball? Which leads to all other types of questions, if the Minnesota players had tacked the EIU punt returner, would have it been called roughing the returner that had already motioned for a fair catch? Why was EIU not penalized 5 yards for advancing a ball that was determined to be a fair catch? There are two officials back for every punt, their job is to see and protect the returner, neither blew the play dead, if he had signaled for an invalid fair catch, then why did they not blow it dead then.

It could have been as simple as the near official thought it might have been an invalid fair catch, and wanted to wait for the play to play out and then check the replay to see if there was or not. They got the call correct, that is what is important, but lets look to make it easier for the officials for the next time this occurs.

The 20 years of rules meeting I have been to talk about rules and how they are going to be called just like this, they are always trying to take away judgement and intent away from the refs.

 

[Cyrocks]

The ball becomes live at the snap. With what you are saying, a snap on a planned punt that goes over the punter's head out of the end zone would be a dead ball... wrong.

Why am I being pulled into this argument?

 

[Garnercy]

It’s obvious that KF and Cooper knew it was the correct call by the time they went to the presser after the game…. it’s why neither one said he was waving teammates off at the presser…. instead they said that’s just how Cooper runs and tries to stay balanced.

They knew at that point that they couldn’t go out there and say he was waving in any way, shape or form…. or they knew they’d be admitting that he screwed up according to the rules.

It’s a joke. Just admit it and be honorable like Wisky did in 2015 when they got nailed by the exact same call.

And even worse…. the Iowa media won’t even admit it either. And then people wonder why they have some of the worst fans in the country.

Agree with this 1000%. Ferentz made a sarcastic response that everybody moves their arms when running and Cooper said he was waving his arm to maintain his balance? Does anybody really believe either of those statements explain the arm movement? Why lie?

 

[Mr Janny]

The ball becomes live at the snap. With what you are saying, a snap on a planned punt that goes over the punter's head out of the end zone would be a dead ball... wrong.

It's not a punt until it's been kicked. Prior to that it's just a regular play. It's absolutely a live ball prior to that. That covers the scenario you described as well as fake punts.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

No idea what you're trying to say here. Are you sure there's not a typo in there? The kicking team can't advance the ball unless it's been touched by the kicking team? That doesn't make sense. They've already touched it by nature of the punter's foot touching the ball.

But it's immaterial. The main point is pretty simple.

A live ball can be possessed or advanced by either team. Example: a fumble or a kickoff

A punt cannot be possessed or advanced by the kicking team unless the receiving team touches it first.

Therefore, a punt is not live until that condition is met.

Now to complicate things, you've got the muff rule where if the receiving team attempts to field the punt, but drops it, the ball can be possessed by the kicking team, but not advanced. But that's only further proof that a punted ball is not the same thing as a live ball in that it has specific conditions that make it recoverable by the kicking team.

Once the ball crosses the LOS it cannot be advanced by the kicking team unless it has been touched by the receiving team first. The clock is still running during the kick, therefore it is a live ball.
Just ask yourself one simple question, is the clock running while the ball is in the air, the answer is yes, therefore it is not a dead ball.

 

[Mr Janny]

According to the NCAA, a live ball is a ball that's in play. No more, no less. Again, that's why all of their rules regarding the kicking team and punts use the phrase "the ball becomes dead."

Live Ball
ARTICLE 1. A live ball is a ball in play. A pass, kick or fumble that has not yet touched the ground is a live ball in flight.

Again a kick is not a punt.

Also, if it's live, why can't the kicking team recover it and take possession of it hasn't been touched by the receiving team?

 

[madguy30]

Agree with this 1000%. Ferentz made a sarcastic response that everybody moves their arms when running and Cooper said he was waving his arm to maintain his balance? Does anybody really believe either of those statements explain the arm movement? Why lie?

 

[Pitt_Clone]

We have all read the rule, now tighten the rule up, get rid of the invalid fair catch which can be a judgement call and just tell the returner, if you want protection, then you must wave your hand over your head, and then the closest official on seeing it will blow the play dead after the ball is caught. Everything else is a live ball, not judgement by anyone on whether he was waving his hands to get away its nothing, unless its above his head, otherwise it's a live ball and can be advanced.

You're really not getting it. At all. It's not only about protection of the returner. If you took away the invalid fair catch rule you would have returners doing all kinds of arm motions trying to get as close as they can to a fair catch signal without actually doing it, to try and fool the kicking team into letting up. Which is exactly what happened on that play.