I went to church growing up like many on here because that's where our family went on Sundays. As I went through college I investigated other faiths and came to the conclusion that being a Christian was what I believed in. I go to church to hear how to be a better Christian by living according to God's ideals...I haven't gone to a church that tells me what I should believe. All the churches I've gone to have helped me interpret the Bible. You seem to think that independence & Christianity don't mix but they do. I independently made the decision to be a Christian and abide by God's principles.
Deace haters...
- Thread starter wonkadog
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I went to church growing up like many on here because that's where our family went on Sundays. As I went through college I investigated other faiths and came to the conclusion that being a Christian was what I believed in. I go to church to hear how to be a better Christian by living according to God's ideals...I haven't gone to a church that tells me what I should believe. All the churches I've gone to have helped me interpret the Bible. You seem to think that independence & Christianity don't mix but they do. I independently made the decision to be a Christian and abide by God's principles.
I hope you're not thinking that I am claiming I'm perfect or anything near it. I strive my best to live a perfect life, but like everyone else in history (besides 1) I always fail. I always hear way too much of the "well, you're no saint either" argument from non-believers. They just don't understand Christian philosophy and it has been shown in these threads. Christians do not believe that they are better than anyone else or that they can live a good enough life to get into heaven by going to church, etc. They DO believe that they are saved by God's grace and that he will judge everyone according to what they believe in their hearts after they leave this world.
Amen!
That's good Christian philosophy. Funny you would never hear Deace say that. He's trying to be a martyr by making people mad and taking criticism. Like that's martyrdom! Being cooked alive in oil is martyrdom!
I have two guiding principles in terms of my faith.
- Love one another as I have loved you.
- Do not judge lest ye be judged.
And in those two principles I see enormous amounts of hypocricy in organized religion. And to be frank, especially with my childhood, lifelong faith of Catholicism. Am I perfect in them on a day to day basis? Without question not.
So, do I think you find yourself perfect? No. But you did take it upon yourself to deem me "wishy washy" and suppose that my issues with religion are to convienence myself so I can "make up my own rules". Far from the truth. And now, I'm trying to decide from your last post, if I was just called a "non-believer"?
- Love one another as I have loved you.
- Do not judge lest ye be judged.
And in those two principles I see enormous amounts of hypocricy in organized religion. And to be frank, especially with my childhood, lifelong faith of Catholicism. Am I perfect in them on a day to day basis? Without question not.
So, do I think you find yourself perfect? No. But you did take it upon yourself to deem me "wishy washy" and suppose that my issues with religion are to convienence myself so I can "make up my own rules". Far from the truth. And now, I'm trying to decide from your last post, if I was just called a "non-believer"?
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I don't believe this is the case at all. Most of us on this board (believers and non) were probably raised as Christians.
Agreed, philosophically. Now tell that to Deace. He might agree to your face, but his actions and articles say differently. That is why we have "Deace haters".
My thoughts are, and I am included in this, is that I say I am a Christian, and I am. But my actions should show that without a doubt I am! And they do not, I am working on a daily basis to change that, but I think that is what causes the most problems when people make a stand for Christianity. All have sinned and fallen short, but as a follower of Christ I need to be aware that I am under the microscope, and should act accordingly, and I do not always do so. For this I am ashamed, I need to show others a way to follow, one that is not boring, but is adventursome, but one with honor.
That's not the way I remember this! If he had stopped at criticizing Shawn Green for his decision to not play on a Jewish holiday, I could have understood. But he didn't, not by any measure. He went full scale after Judaism as a whole. Doesn't anybody remember the Kotlar show the next morning? I thought Larry (who is always polite) was going to have a coronary. The whole thing made me (a radio listener) very uncomfortable and I haven't listened to Deace since...
Postscript: Happily practicing Lutheran who doesn't hate Steve Deace but doesn't identify with him at all!
Aka...
I'm gonna stir the pot real good and want everyone to have a chance to smell it.
This type of stuff is why I'm not fond of Deace. I think he's a very intelligent man - agree or disagree with him. However, I dislike many of his tactics.
Anytime someone is passionate in their beliefs, and not afraid to talk about it, they are going to **** some people off. I respect him for taking a stand for what he believes in, and pulling no punches. Sometimes I think he goes overboard, but I like to listen to him. I sent him an email about something he was talking about quite a while ago, and he wrote back and it was a full page, and was very thoughtful in his response. That impressed me quite a bit.
Originally Posted by wonkadog
Uh, I would say his moral compass points squarely at the Bible so if sticking up for your religious views based on the foundation of your faith is wrong and makes you mad, count me in too. I'm sorry you are so turned off by religion but I can see why...religions are not for wishy-washy people who want to be able to make up their own rules about everything. I hope you will find somone in the future who can talk with you about Christianity without being as smug as some of our more vocal leaders can be.
I would hardly call myself wishy washy. I know what things I believe in and I don't feel the need to go out and tell others they are wrong because they don't believe what I do. I also was able to make decisions on what I believe myself, I didn't need to go to church every week and have someone tell me what I should believe.
Wonkadog, he does have a good point I hate to tell you. Some people are turned off by people (like Deace for instances) that force their beliefs on you and basically try to talk down to you when you don't agree with them. For some people this might work but everyone has their own way of practicing their faith and everyone came to their faith in a different fashion. A direct approach may work for some but others will seek it out in other ways. Both are fine but you have to know when and when not to be "pushy." This is one but reason why I get frustrated with Johoviah Witnesses. I don't like being bothered at home by some strangers and they will start quoting you stuff from their book that condradicts what I believe in. In fact the best way to get rid of those people is to say "let me go grab my bible and see what my book has to say about that." They won't be at your doorstep much longer because they don't want to hear you think they are wrong just they they are telling you that you are wrong.
I'm not the kind of Christian that thinks I need to witness to everyone I come in contact with me and I won't get into a religious discussion unless it was probably started by someone else. That's just my comfort level and that doesn't make me or anyone else any less of a Christian because of it.
While I can understand where some people are coming from not wanting to be told they're wrong, I also see where Deace is coming from. While I personally wouldn't go up to a non-believer and tell them that they are going to hell, the basis of Christianity is that Jesus said He is the ONLY way to heaven (No man come to the Father, but through Me). So if somebody is a Christian and believes God's word, then they also should believe that it is the only way to heaven. Maybe the best way to witness to people isn't to flat out tell them they're going to hell, but if I believe the bible I know that is what it is saying.
What irks me in many of these threads are the people that are saying they are Christians but that they think everybody should believe what they want and it's all good. Jesus taught that it's not all good, and in fact many of the "vile pagan societies" in the bible sound eerily similar to this train of thought. They speak of people worshiping many different gods and having multitudes of beliefs and religions. Unfortunately it seems that this is the direction America is heading, where everybody proclaims tolerance and that everybody's belief is just as valid as the next person's. Tolerance is fine when we're saying that we need to be loving and gentle to everybody. But when people call Deace and other Christian's "bigots", they are basically being ignorant of the premise of Christianity that Jesus is THE ONLY WAY. If you don't believe that, you aren't practicing true Christianity. If that makes me a bigot in your eyes, so be it, but that's how my savior taught it. I don't claim to be better than the next person, but fortunately I just need to do the best I can and put my faith in Christ to be saved.
In my eyes, that was one of the best ways you could have stated your belief. However, because there is not any difinitive proof that one religion is correct, and others are wrong, by telling people that their belief isn't valid doesn't make much sense. That's the way I see it at least. Belief whatever you want to, and what makes sense to you. Just don't tell me that I'm wrong when there's no basis to make that suggestion other than your own belief.
I wish this didn't have to be my first post with my new username, but anyways:
I don't know Steve personally, nor do I listen to his radio show. All I know of him is from other people and what I've read by him and seen of him on CyHawk Talk. I've always felt that Deace has come across as childish. Always. Whether it's banning people (which is his right) from a message board or the way he represents Cyclone fans on TV. The fact that he is one of the most recognizable Cyclone Fans in Iowa is sickening to me. I'd rather have guys like Jeremy, Chris Williams, or Brent Blum representing me and my fellow Cyclone Fans.
Steve Deace appears to be good at causing trouble in the political realm, and that's great! I hope he continues to do that. This issue is political in nature and while it involves our football team, it is unnecessary to bring your other job to Cyclone Sports. I respect him for standing up for what he believes in, but I cannot respect the way he carries himself. Politics is not about who can yell louder longer, it is about debate, civilized debate (unless you're in the British Commons). For him to use CN as a vehicle to show off his political savvy to an otherwise uninterested sports fan base was a "look at me and how smart I am" type ploy. I wish I didn't waste my time reading it.
I'm glad Cyclone Fanatic exists, because when it comes to sports and spirited debate with my fellow Cyclones....this is where I want to be.
I don't know Steve personally, nor do I listen to his radio show. All I know of him is from other people and what I've read by him and seen of him on CyHawk Talk. I've always felt that Deace has come across as childish. Always. Whether it's banning people (which is his right) from a message board or the way he represents Cyclone fans on TV. The fact that he is one of the most recognizable Cyclone Fans in Iowa is sickening to me. I'd rather have guys like Jeremy, Chris Williams, or Brent Blum representing me and my fellow Cyclone Fans.
Steve Deace appears to be good at causing trouble in the political realm, and that's great! I hope he continues to do that. This issue is political in nature and while it involves our football team, it is unnecessary to bring your other job to Cyclone Sports. I respect him for standing up for what he believes in, but I cannot respect the way he carries himself. Politics is not about who can yell louder longer, it is about debate, civilized debate (unless you're in the British Commons). For him to use CN as a vehicle to show off his political savvy to an otherwise uninterested sports fan base was a "look at me and how smart I am" type ploy. I wish I didn't waste my time reading it.
I'm glad Cyclone Fanatic exists, because when it comes to sports and spirited debate with my fellow Cyclones....this is where I want to be.
The book's editors said Jesus said this. There is no way of knowing what was really said.
Yeah I understand what you're saying, all I'm saying is that the basis of Christianity is that it is the ONLY WAY. So while it would be futile and ignorant to insult somebody and tell them they're going to hell if you have their eternal interests at heart as a Christian, if you are a Christian you at least believe that's where they're heading without changing. Out of compassion/love you can try to find a better way to help them than bashing on them. However, it would just be impossible to be a Christian and think that everybody's going to heaven because that goes against a major premise of Christianity.
I guess you could argue that too...I just don't understand how it would benefit the bible authors to make that up. Also, it was said repeatedly in different books and in the presence of thousands and thousands of people. I would think you'd have more luck just arguing that Jesus was wrong than to argue that He never said it. With that argument though I'd rather not risk being wrong and hollering across the chasm to ask why salvation had to only be through faith in Jesus. This isn't the reason that I believe, but I think if I wasn't saved and had no other reason to believe that would be enough to push me toward the cross by itself.
I'm not attacking you tigershoops, just throwing out posible hypotheticals.
Monetarily? I'm just asking, because they did create an entire church. They could have "cooked the books" for all anyone really knows. Not saying they did, just that could be a reason to attract to the faith.
But if you had a firm belief that you were saved by following the Torah or Koran, and someone said that you weren't saved by not following the cross, you wouldn't really appreciate it. I mean, you believe you're saved by Jesus, but if a Muslim told you that you weren't because you didn't praise Allah and Muhammad, you wouldn't venture towards their faith because of your own. I don't think your statement there has much merit unless you were convinced you were going to Hell or something similar already.
Monetarily? I'm just asking, because they did create an entire church. They could have "cooked the books" for all anyone really knows. Not saying they did, just that could be a reason to attract to the faith.
But if you had a firm belief that you were saved by following the Torah or Koran, and someone said that you weren't saved by not following the cross, you wouldn't really appreciate it. I mean, you believe you're saved by Jesus, but if a Muslim told you that you weren't because you didn't praise Allah and Muhammad, you wouldn't venture towards their faith because of your own. I don't think your statement there has much merit unless you were convinced you were going to Hell or something similar already.
Yeah if you look at it from the perspective of today's church then I could see the monetary angle. But back then the church had to go underground to avoid persecution, and the believers/apostles/bible scribes worked full time at other jobs in addition to their spiritual work so they wouldn't be a financial burden to those they were trying to witness to. (sounds like a method many Christians could learn from today) So really, they saw no money whatsoever, and by stating their belief that Jesus was the only way they were really making life more dangerous for themselves.
Yeah that's true, I was meaning that statement more for somebody that was an atheist/agnostic. You're right on that this is a weaker argument for Christianity, especially if you're talking about somebody that already believes in a different religion. If I were debating the merits of Christianity with somebody of a Muslim (or different religious) faith, I wouldn't even use this point, but would rather talk about the proof that is found for the truth found in the bible.