What's the problem with offense besides Tom Manning?

[CoKane]

The offense has not been a problem. In fact, historically this is the best offensive era for Cyclone football ever.

If that's the case why cant we put the ball in the endzone? Since 2019 our offense has scored 21.8 ppg since Tom Mannings return while playing teams who finished with 8 wins or more. Someone else pointed out Messingham was sitting at 21.4 ppg in the same games.

Also, as ive said a lot. Bar is so low you cant even trip over it there. Comparing things to our history to make the claim something is undisputedly good doesnt work when dont have a history of good anything

 

[joefrog]

I think having 2 NFL caliber running backs did a whole lot to cover up some huge deficiencies this staff has on the offensive side of the ball.

We're nearly the worst P5 offense, and that was when we had Brock for 4 games. The fact this staff doesn't have a contingency strategy is amazing.

I mean, what if ISU goes down 17 at half? Do they still run the ball? IIRC CMC's teams running hurry-up have always looked discombobulated. This is year 7. 7. And people still have excuses.

Sorry to be such a pessimist, but if these trends continue, posts like my recent ones will not be so isolated.

My guess is we'll find out Saturday. If they try the same stuff as at KU though, oof. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

 

[joefrog]

If that's the case why cant we put the ball in the endzone? Since 2019 our offense has scored 21.8 ppg since Tom Mannings return while playing teams who finished with 8 wins or more. Someone else pointed out Messingham was sitting at 21.4 ppg in the same games.

Also, as ive said a lot. Bar is so low you cant even trip over it there. Comparing things to our history to make the claim something is undisputedly good doesnt work when dont have a history of good anything

Thought exercise: What if Jon Heacock wasn't on staff?

 

[LtRaczack]

I think having 2 NFL caliber running backs did a whole lot to cover up some huge deficiencies this staff has on the offensive side of the ball.

We're nearly the worst P5 offense, and that was when we had Brock for 4 games. The fact this staff doesn't have a contingency strategy is amazing.

I mean, what if ISU goes down 17 at half? Do they still run the ball? IIRC CMC's teams running hurry-up have always looked discombobulated. This is year 7. 7. And people still have excuses.

Sorry to be such a pessimist, but if these trends continue, posts like my recent ones will not be so isolated.

My guess is we'll find out Saturday. If they try the same stuff as at KU though, oof. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Hopefully KSU doesn't run the dreaded cover 4 defense and "the chart" is left in the office and not brought out to the field in case they do.

I'd like to be pleasantly surprised too.

 

[CoKane]

Thought exercise: What if Jon Heacock wasn't on staff?

We'd be very bad most likely

 

[joefrog]

We'd be very bad most likely

He's the Monte Kiffin of college football. His schemes and execution are amazing.

Without him, are we probably looking at McCarney type winning percentage?

 

[ZRF]

Honestly? Campbell.

Amazing for the program and the infusion of talent alone has been drastically improved. With that said, I don't think Campbell is strategically adept. He is poor at utilizing the clock. We rarely operated under center even in 3rd/4th and inches situations, we don't make schematic adjustments on offense, and specials teams have been brutal. Like many coaches he also seems to be loyal to a fault, something you shouldn't be doing when making millions a year.

We've also got to figure out a way to field an above average offensive line for 2-3 out of every 5 years (at least). Just when it seems like it's heading in the right direction it isn't. Blocking is what allows EVERYTHING else to happing and this group simply isn't getting the job done. It's a consistent weak spot of the program (even before Campbell).

In general I don't think our skill position guys are part of the problem.

 

[stewart092284]

The scheme part is with Campbell because Manning isn't doing anything with CMC's sign off. Same with Heacock.

That said, again, its not all on the offensive line. If you are as base as we have been thru 5 games - as a former DL guy - I'd try to have my unit licking their chops because they are teeing off on every snap feeling pretty good they know what is coming. And unless you have an NFL offensive line and even then - you're going to look dumb and bad up front. I don't care who you have .

Think of it like this - what if Will McDonald knew on every 3rd and long he was always got to get 3 kick steps and solo protection ? How many sacks would he have? How much would he wreck on offense if we went one on one and let him know in certain situations exactly what we were going to run? He'd destroy an offense more than he does.

That's why I say its not on the offensive line entirely. They're asked to beat high caliber athletes who have very little fear or doubt of what we are going to do - which is the biggest advantage an OL has is knowing the snap count, play /play type and direction - if you take those away from the offensive linemen - good night sweet heart to anyone not named Anthony Munoz or Tony Allen. We generally don't get the Anthony Munoz's or Tony Allen's of the world.

We'd need to have three KO's at guard and center and IDK, two of the best tackles in modern history we've had and then MAYBE - we'd be an really good running team.


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THis is the best response ever to questioning a coaches call though - I loathe Briles their OC but I do like Pittman

 

[Stormin]

Thought exercise: What if Jon Heacock wasn't on staff?

Last year there was lots of grumbling about Heacock in our losses to WVU giving up 38 points and 41 points to TTU. Bad defensive showings. Heacock was inept according to many.

 

[joefrog]

Last year there was lots of grumbling about Heacock in our losses to WVU giving up 38 points and 41 points to TTU. Bad defensive showings. Heacock was inept according to many.

Remind me, were those the games with new starting QBs where the strategy wasn't aggressive defense to rattle the young QB and keep them from getting comfortable and finding a rhythm?

 

[surly]

This thread exemplifies why our two fanbases are so much alike. Brothers by different mothers. Doubting CMC as K-State fans did Bill Snyder. Guys who brought their programs from obscurity to prominence. Both believing they are somehow the next Bama if only for some horrible, minor league coaching decisions. And oh, the fuc.... offensive coordinators. Ha, ha. No wonder Farmaggedon works. Even a girl gets it.

 

[Stormin]

Remind me, were those the games with new starting QBs where the strategy wasn't aggressive defense to rattle the young QB and keep them from getting comfortable and finding a rhythm?

Donovan Smith of WVU was a freshman. Jarret Doege was a senior. Had a season best game against Iowa State in an up and down season. He is now a grad transfer at Troy State.

 

[VeloClone]

Well, you can. At least 2 of those 3 are on pace for 9 wins. That's been our peak season. Otherwise, we're sitting around 7-6 for 2 of the last 3 years. That's just getting by.

And no, Oklahoma State has probably been better, with the exception of whatever happened to cause that down year.

Should be using just conference records or winning percentage since ISU peak season of 9 wins was in all practicality just conference games and in any case a shortened schedule.

 

[VeloClone]

This thread exemplifies why our two fanbases are so much alike. Brothers by different mothers. Doubting CMC as K-State fans did Bill Snyder. Guys who brought their programs from obscurity to prominence. Both believing they are somehow the next Bama if only for some horrible, minor league coaching decisions. And oh, the fuc.... offensive coordinators. Ha, ha. No wonder Farmaggedon works. Even a girl gets it.

As a father and husband of women I don't like where you are going with that...

 

[CascadeClone]

Any criticisms lobbed at the special teams I'm 100% fine with. That's been an issue basically the entire tenure under Campbell.

The offense has not been a problem. In fact, historically this is the best offensive era for Cyclone football ever.

These 5 games have not been good, but we also lost arguably the best QB in school history, arguably the best RB in school history, and arguably the TWO best TE's in school history. We're down to our 3rd and 4th string RB's. Is the offense not good? You bet, it's pretty dang frustrating to watch right now. But I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater considering what we've seen under Campbell's offensive staff.

All true and fair wrt the departed personnel. But there are still real problems with the overall scheme as well, it is not simply execution failures by younger guys.

And it's not an either/or deal - both can be root causes.

 

[CoKane]

Last year there was lots of grumbling about Heacock in our losses to WVU giving up 38 points and 41 points to TTU. Bad defensive showings. Heacock was inept according to many.

Wanna hear a secret as to why Heacock doesnt get the blame and Manning does? Its wild

Its because Manning fails regularly and Heacock doesnt. Ill have numbers backing that up in a bit

 

[t-noah]

I can't help but think that Joel Gordon becoming the QB coach and passing game coordinator has stunted our QB growth.

Timeline:

2008-2010: Gordon was the offensive coordinator at Emory & Henry a Division 3 school in Virginia. He worked along side Tom Manning was was an offensive line coach at the school in 2008.

2011-2015: Spent 5 seasons at his alma mater Shepherd (W.V>) University as Quarterbacks and Receivers coach.

2016-2017: Asked by Matt Campbell to assist as an Offensive Analyst

2018: Quarterbacks Coach

2019: Passing Game Coordinator/Quarterbacks coach.

Most of his listed accomplishments include Brock Purdy breaking all of the school records at ISU. But doesn't anyone else think that Purdy actually got worse or stagnant under his tutelage?
Purdy leaves ISU and gets an independent quarterbacks coach, all of a sudden he looks like an NFL quarterback.
We don't seem to have any development with our quarterbacks and they seem to become stagnant or get worse over their time here.
Discuss.

I suppose any of the offensive coaches should be up for critique. Gordon's job is subject to review certainly. I didn't know he was in the same coaching tree as Manning. To me, that is, or could be, a problem. We likely need new ideas and innovation offensively, not the same things.

How exactly do we know he’s gotten better? Has he even played a snap in a real game?

Ground control to Major Tom..

He's better because we say he's better. Sort of like our team at the beginning of this year?

 

[SCarolinaCy]

Purdy was a rollout, scrambler (to buy time for his receivers to be open or run for a first down). His coaches, however, kept wanting him to be a pocket passer.
Seems pretty obvious that Dekkers is a pocket passer. His coaches NEED to find ways/plays to slow the rush and give him more time for receivers to be open. In the (hopefully) rare times when that doesn't happen, he needs to either step up and complete a pass or throw the ball away.

 

[madguy30]

Honestly? Campbell.

Amazing for the program and the infusion of talent alone has been drastically improved. With that said, I don't think Campbell is strategically adept. He is poor at utilizing the clock. We rarely operated under center even in 3rd/4th and inches situations, we don't make schematic adjustments on offense, and specials teams have been brutal. Like many coaches he also seems to be loyal to a fault, something you shouldn't be doing when making millions a year.

We've also got to figure out a way to field an above average offensive line for 2-3 out of every 5 years (at least). Just when it seems like it's heading in the right direction it isn't. Blocking is what allows EVERYTHING else to happing and this group simply isn't getting the job done. It's a consistent weak spot of the program (even before Campbell).

In general I don't think our skill position guys are part of the problem.

Do other college teams just call it out, get up and run it to get the first down in this situation? It seems like it.

That's all that was needed in the last series last Saturday. 4th and 1/2 yard, get up, run the sneak. Who cares if the whole stadium knows what you're doing. You get the first down and at least get a couple of chances to get closer for a field goal or maybe even get a TD.

 

[ZRF]

Do other college teams just call it out, get up and run it to get the first down in this situation? It seems like it.

That's all that was needed in the last series last Saturday. 4th and 1/2 yard, get up, run the sneak. Who cares if the whole stadium knows what you're doing. You get the first down and at least get a couple of chances to get closer for a field goal or maybe even get a TD.

Agreed. Our inability to run plays under center when the situation calls for it is indefensible. So is the amount of time it often takes for us to make these decisions and get plays in, as you just pointed out.

I think a lot of our problems are "fixable" if we had a staff that would be open for some change. These aren't had decisions either, literally 80% of our problems could be identified by high school coaches and players.

To simply most of our problems, Campbell and his entire staff are slow to adapt: adapting to the personnel (offensive line), adapting to the opponent in a game (getting killed in an area and waiting until half time to adjust if they even do so at all), and adapting to yardage/down/time critical situations.

He's created a great culture. He's brought in better players. Now he needs mold his staff (get STs coordinator and replace manning), adapt, and come up with better (offensive) scheming.