Stop underutilizing Ward
- Thread starter ZRF
- Start date
What is the term for doing something like posting about getting scrutinized/'attacked' for posting certain themes and then continually digging in deep and continuing with the same behavior that gets scrutinized, then continuing to spiral when others take part in the discussion?
It's like the hoarder who complains about not having money.
It's like the hoarder who complains about not having money.
Not really.
Ward is one of those rare breeds who impacts the games without picking up standard stats. In terms of their games and what they bring to the floor they aren't comparable. And saying Ward is more valuable isn't a slight against Jones in the least.
This team is ranked #12 in the country and is in second place in the toughest conference in the country.
And yet some people think they can manage this team better than TJ and staff. Crazy...
And yet some people think they can manage this team better than TJ and staff. Crazy...
Look at the last 3 games (I think this is enough time from the injury for Hason to be considered healthy plus we won them all). One of those games (Kansas State) Ward was in foul trouble basically the whole game so you can't really give much credence to the minutes he played (16 vs 24 for BRE).
In the other two games, Ward is playing 34% more minutes than BRE (43 vs 32). Hason is getting more minutes when he is not in foul trouble. Close the thread.
In the other two games, Ward is playing 34% more minutes than BRE (43 vs 32). Hason is getting more minutes when he is not in foul trouble. Close the thread.
I think at this point, I'm going to trust the guy that has turned our program around from a laughing stock to perennial Big 12 contenders in the Top 15 to manage the roster as he feels best.
As usual a good post and a sensible response.
I'm not advocating for Ward to get 35 a night. Not only do I think it's likely unrealistic, I think (like you said) that's stretching him with how be plays. It's not exactly apples and oranges but Embiid is the quickest example that comes to my head. His minutes are relatively limited when simply looking at how dominant he is, but he's a 7 footer and a thick/built one at that.
I do think he is capable of playing closer to 25 a night, maybe even an occasional 30 minutes, and think Otz should be leaving him on the floor when foul trouble allows. I think that likely is fairly sensible but Otz will never know, we will never know, until we give him that opportunity. Otz is prematurely yanking him before Ward even comes close to those limitations.
I'd be more inclined to think he could be nursing a slight injury if we hadn't seen a similar scenario play out with Osun last year. I hope the 22 minute high in the game against Kansas is a step in the right direction (where he only picked up 2 fouls). We'll see.
CF reacting to ANOTHER tldr ZRF post...
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In 2005 when ISU lost to eventual NC North Carolina in the second round, this entire board thought they could have managed the entire season better then Wayne Morgan hence firewaynemorgan.com and with it Cyclonefanatic is born.
In 2016 when winning 23 games and making the sweet 16 almost the entire CF board said they could have done a better job than Prohm. Did it again the next season when all of a sudden 24 total wins, 12-6 and tied for 2nd in the conference along with winning a conference tourney championship were all of sudden considered.........meh.
So why change now?
Not really. He's had several games where he's played closer to 15 minutes while not being in foul trouble.
But, there have (obviously) been games where fouls were the limiting factor. Not only did he have 4 fouls in 3 games, he picked up those fouls relatively early, notching his 4th foul near or well before the 10 minute mark. Nothing Otz can do about that.
In those other games? Not so much. Against BYU fouls were a non-factor yet Otz routinely pulled Ward when effective. He played 14 minutes in picking up ONE foul in that game. With Ward on the floor we were +1. Without him? We were -16 and that ballooned to -24 before BYU scrubbed out at the end of the game.
If you go through other games this trend largely plays out. Plus minus can be a flawed stat for a lot of reasons but a more telling stat is how well you do with a player on the floor and how well or poorly you do with them off it. It is ******* crazy how much Ward consistently swings the game in our favor. Don't believe me you can look it up yourself.
When Ward limits himself there's nothing you can do. But when he doesn't? You don't limit a player who swings games like that. You let him limit himself (with fouls, performance, or being visibly tired).
We sit guys that we have to sit, in order to get through a game, and later a whole season. For Ward, that means his stamina and ability to remain on the court is pretty much capped at 20 or so minutes. Ward and BRE are nearly identical players in advanced stats, and are both being used effectively around that context. It's not just these two, either, TJ frequently changes lineups and shuffles minutes around based on game flow.
Your comparisons suck donkey balls and you're full of dog **** loser takes, despite having a clearly successful team.
I think he's he's improperly utilizing a couple of players but on a much (much) smaller scale. Pavs is one of the worst players in the Big 12 and really shouldn't see the floor. TJ did an excellent job in keeping him on the bench against KU. The other is Watson who I think should play a little bit more, especially when defense and length are paramount. I've said before and will say again I think TJ missed an opportunity in not playing Watson over Pavs in the non-con as Pavs was NEVER going to be an integral piece on this team.
Last year I'd say Pavs would never play meaningful minutes but I never though Rob had it in him to get to where he has. So I won't say never but will say it's not very likely.
CF reacting to ANOTHER tldr ZRF post...
I agree. That sums up the quality of the responses quite nicely since few have provided much in the way of content to, you know, supportive evidence.
I think you are missing part of the strategy. TJ LOVES to keep the opponents on edge. Because BRE and Ward bring such different things to the game, it keeps the opponents having to make adjustments. I think the two of them sharing the time is fantastic, and I think he does a great job of managing it.
There we go. Someone who responds with something more than the CF tripe "you just know everything".
I agree with the premise of what you're saying. The problem is, in games where fouls have not been the limiting factor, what's the reason for limiting his minutes? It's not effectiveness and if it's not fatigue, how do you know a players "limits" if you don't actually find his said minutes? That's why I made the thread.
He was getting his hands on everything. Extremely disruptive when he is in there