School size.

[alarson]

And theres no reason you cant do that at a larger school (up until you hit the mega-schools), with the state getting more out.

Its simple fixed vs variable costs.

If a school of 100 and a school of 200 both have to build a 1mil building (as an example), hire the same amount of administrative staff, etc; the money left over on a per student basis for education AND extracurriculars is less. And even if they can provide the exact same opportunities, the QUALITY of those opportunities is going down because youre dividing a smaller pie into the same amount of slices.

 

[LeSchmick]

Re: ISU Extension Service to be Cut

Yep, I agree completely. I graduated from a school that has 750 students K-12, so it isn't super small by Iowa standards, but they have 3 full time principals (that don't teach) and 1 super. Completely unncessary.

750 for k-12? I'd say that's creeping up on super small. My highschool had 1300 people in it and it was only 10-12

 

[chadm]

And theres no reason you cant do that at a larger school (up until you hit the mega-schools), with the state getting more out.

Its simple fixed vs variable costs.

If a school of 100 and a school of 200 both have to build a 1mil building (as an example), hire the same amount of administrative staff, etc; the money left over on a per student basis for education AND extracurriculars is less. And even if they can provide the exact same opportunities, the QUALITY of those opportunities is going down because youre dividing a smaller pie into the same amount of slices.

You are assuming that the costs in a big school are the same in a small school.

Also, the opportunities in a small school are far greater for those with below average athlete abilities.

 

[chadm]

Re: ISU Extension Service to be Cut

750 for k-12? I'd say that's creeping up on super small. My highschool had 1300 people in it and it was only 10-12

And that made you a better student/athelete? What sports did you participate in 10-12?

 

[alarson]

You are assuming that the costs in a big school are the same in a small school.

Also, the opportunities in a small school are far greater for those with below average athlete abilities.

Of course the fixed costs are not exactly the same, theres some sliding up as you increase.

As far as sports for below average abilities, one could argue that for above average athletes their opportunities are less in smaller schools than bigger ones. So that really makes no difference.

Lets keep in mind, most who want rural school consolidation arent pushing for a small number of mega-schools. Theyre pushing for schools that are more medium sized, on an iowa level. On a national level, theyd still be considered small schools even after the consolidation. Its the ultra-small schools that need to be consolidated, and since the rest of the state is paying for it, the state should expect minimum standards in availability in programs such as extracurriculars, academics, arts, vocational studies, etc, that fit the modern world. That includes AP classes, and music, and special education. These things simply cannot be met as effectively in the schools with 25 in a class. Yall may like having your own little tiny schools, but why should the rest of us be paying to support the lower quality of education.

 

[chadm]

Of course the fixed costs are not exactly the same, theres some sliding up as you increase.

As far as sports for below average abilities, one could argue that for above average athletes their opportunities are less in smaller schools than bigger ones. So that really makes no difference.

Lets keep in mind, most who want rural school consolidation arent pushing for a small number of mega-schools. Theyre pushing for schools that are more medium sized, on an iowa level. On a national level, theyd still be considered small schools even after the consolidation. Its the ultra-small schools that need to be consolidated, and since the rest of the state is paying for it, the state should expect minimum standards in availability in programs such as extracurriculars, academics, arts, vocational studies, etc, that fit the modern world. That includes AP classes, and music, and special education. These things simply cannot be met as effectively in the schools with 25 in a class. Yall may like having your own little tiny schools, but why should the rest of us be paying to support the lower quality of education.

Can you show test scores? I am willing to bet that the average ITBS are better in smaller schools that in the large city schools.

 

[LeSchmick]

Re: ISU Extension Service to be Cut

And that made you a better student/athelete? What sports did you participate in 10-12?

uhhh....i didn't play sports. I was more of a music guy. I would say it was beneficial because a) the whole school and community didn't immediately know if I had detention or not ten minutes after it happened. b) i was exposed to a wider array of classes which helped me figure out what i wanted to do faster and I wasn't held back by other students. c) i was exposed to more types of people, i didn't live in a bubble. d) I believe the teachers were better. Larger schools attract more teachers than small rural communities.

I'm not sure what your purpose in attacking me was, but i hope i answered that for you. I was simply saying that I believe that that district was pretty small.

 

[chadm]

Re: ISU Extension Service to be Cut

uhhh....i didn't play sports. I was more of a music guy. I would say it was beneficial because a) the whole school and community didn't immediately know if I had detention or not ten minutes after it happened. b) i was exposed to a wider array of classes which helped me figure out what i wanted to do faster and I wasn't held back by other students. c) i was exposed to more types of people, i didn't live in a bubble. d) I believe the teachers were better. Larger schools attract more teachers than small rural communities.

I'm not sure what your purpose in attacking me was, but i hope i answered that for you. I was simply saying that I believe that that district was pretty small.

You could have played sports in a smaller school. That is my point. The bigger schools can offer more specialize acedemic classes, but they don't allow everyone to participate in sports.

Being smart isn't the only thing that makes a person a good employee, learning team concepts it just as important.

 

[alarson]

Can you show test scores? I am willing to bet that the average ITBS are better in smaller schools that in the large city schools.

You may be right not really comparing to the large city schools though. We're more comparing to the larger (but not really large) medium sized schools.

Add to that, this kind of touches on what cyaggie talked about how iowa is the best at being average. We're great at getting everyone to that average level. But we suck at giving kids those extra opportunities for extracurriculars, music, art, advanced levels of math, science, history. You know, the things that arent tested on the ITBS or ACT. A high average isnt always good if you just pushed everyone towards the middle instead of helping everyone achieve their best.

 

[alarson]

Re: ISU Extension Service to be Cut

You could have played sports in a smaller school. That is my point. The bigger schools can offer more specialize acedemic classes, but they don't allow everyone to participate in sports.

Being smart isn't the only thing that makes a person a good employee, learning team concepts it just as important.

The medium (or even small) sized schools do allow that! You're setting up this straw man that because the ultra large schools dont allow everyone to participate, that consolidating some schools will keep lots of kids out too. Nobody's asking for yall to be mega-schools. You consolidate two schools with 25\class and you still only have 50\class, which is still a VERY small number. even 100 or 200 is still very small.

As far as team concepts, sports are not the only place to learn those. I wasnt a sports guy either. I was in band\choir. You can learn team concepts there as well. You can also learn them in groups in classes.

 

[Bobber]

My origional premise was that 1 superintendant per county should be sufficient with principals at each school.

I never suggested schools need to merge or become bigger. Not sure how this morphed into a big school vs large school argument?

 

[chadm]

You may be right not really comparing to the large city schools though. We're more comparing to the larger (but not really large) medium sized schools.

Add to that, this kind of touches on what cyaggie talked about how iowa is the best at being average. We're great at getting everyone to that average level. But we suck at giving kids those extra opportunities for extracurriculars, music, art, advanced levels of math, science, history. You know, the things that arent tested on the ITBS or ACT. A high average isnt always good if you just pushed everyone towards the middle instead of helping everyone achieve their best.

Maybe if society wants to improve the education system, they should start by making the big schools smaller?

 

[alarson]

Maybe if society wants to improve the education system, they should start by making the big schools smaller?

Id agree the mega schools are too big. Some schools already are doing just that! Ankeny is breaking out into 2 high schools and I believe waukee will break out into 2 high schools before they become too large (theyre building their 2nd middle school now, the classes get much larger as you go from 12th to K in waukee). Its a lot harder to break them up once theyve become so big than to consolidate them. And its much more expensive, as you lose a lot of the cost benefits you gain by being larger and more consolidated.

At the end of the day though, theyre still offering the wide range of academic opportunities, the key goal of schools and funding. Extracurriculars, while important, are secondary. Small schools suffer in academic offerings, while ultra large suffer in extracurricular. If you're going to sacrifice one or the other, you gotta go with the extracurriculars.

 

[LeSchmick]

Re: ISU Extension Service to be Cut

You could have played sports in a smaller school. That is my point. The bigger schools can offer more specialize acedemic classes, but they don't allow everyone to participate in sports.

Being smart isn't the only thing that makes a person a good employee, learning team concepts it just as important.

Life doesn't revolve around sports. Big schools also taught me that I wasn't going to be good at everything. Its better they learn earlier instead of when they get out on their own.

 

[CarolinaCy]

Re: ISU Extension Service to be Cut

750 for k-12? I'd say that's creeping up on super small. My highschool had 1300 people in it and it was only 10-12

750 is almost super small? My high school had around 100 students k-12, with only 24 in my graduating class.

 

[54cy]

Re: ISU Extension Service to be Cut

750 is almost super small? My high school had around 100 students k-12, with only 24 in my graduating class.

So your Senior class held 25% of the students in the disrict? There must have been some grades with 5 or 6 students. Consider yourself lucky my friend.

 

[kingcy]

So do I get credit for this even though I didnt really even start the thread?

 

[cybsball20]

One thing I have never understood is why there are so many different school districts in Iowa. Why does a county like Warren have seperate school districts for Norwalk, Carlisle, Indianola, SE Warren, I-35, Martensdale-St. Marys etc. Why not have one district with seperate High Schools?