Reclassifying 4A football
- Thread starter bear24
- Start date
Competing in football is the problem, when the metro schools have not beaten a suburban school in 10 years, you have to wonder if they ever will. They are doing fine competing in the other sports. Allow the five DM district to form a district on their own with Ottumwa, Marshalltown, and Newton and they will be fine. Newton for years played in 4A football, they can compete with the DM schools.
KidSilverhair
Well-Known Member
No, they don’t recruit.
You can check their rosters if you want. Their players have been in the parochial school system since elementary school. Unless you think Xavier’s coaches are so good they can identify varsity-level talent in first grade.
Dowling, though ... yeah, those guys bring in players from other schools all the time, no doubt about that. But you can’t make them play up, they’re already 4A.
Now, if you want to discuss socio-economic and other factors to level the playing field and perhaps have certain schools playing in different classes, we can talk - but I know the Xavier football program and they do not recruit. And why single out Xavier for not electing to play up in a class they don’t have the enrollment for, when NO OTHER SCHOOL IN THE STATE has chosen to do that on their own?
(Xavier didn’t “drop” to 3A, either. They’ve always been a 3A-sized school, but they competed in 4A as a member of the MVC, where all the conference schools agreed to play 4A schedules. When Davenport Assumption ditched the MAC in early 2014, that caused the dominoes to fall that ended the MAC and the MVC for football and brought districts for all classes across the state ... so Xavier is playing in the correct class for their enrollment. An enrollment that has been going down, by the way - they’re barely in the top 20 in 3A by size.)
2013 Championship game, WDM Dowling vs CR Xavier.
https://whotv.com/2013/11/22/title-game-dowling-vs-cedar-rapids-xavier/
I’m all for some sort of relegation like European soccer where if you win you move up and if you lose you go down. It’ll never happen but all those other factors like socio-economic considerations don’t matter. You are either competitive or you move until you are. Unless you’re the very best team or very worst team in the state eventually you will settle in to where you need to be.
KidSilverhair
Well-Known Member
Not sure what this has to do with what I said. Xavier played a 4A schedule (as a 3A sized school) prior to 2014. Yes, they won a state 4A title in 2006 and got to the 4A championship in 2012 and 2013. They didn’t recruit to do it - I’ve seen every Xavier game since 2006, there’s a lot of longtime Catholic Church-going family names on those teams, and like I said, those kids had ALL been going to school together since elementary grades.
Here’s a fun fact, though - the 2013 Xavier team had 74 juniors and seniors on their varsity roster. Last year there were 51. If a school with that kind of success is seeing their participation numbers drop by almost 30 percent in five years, can you imagine what schools with struggling football programs are dealing with?
KidSilverhair
Well-Known Member
I’ve always thought something along these lines could be part of the solution. There’s always a problem with a school getting moved up right when a particularly successful, athletic senior class graduates (or the opposite, if a bunch of new studs joins the varsity just as a team gets moved down) but maybe spreading out the criteria for relegation over three seasons or something might help.
KidSilverhair
Well-Known Member
I do get why people get annoyed when private schools succeed athletically. I do. There are definite advantages that private schools have over many public schools - parent involvement, higher socioeconomic status in many cases, etc.
But there’s no simple answer to make it “fair,” if that’s even the right word. Make the private schools separate from the publics? That’s going to be unworkable, unless you think folks will enjoy Dowling vs Des Moines Christian (and if your answer to that is, “I don’t care, that’s the private schools’ problem” nothing I can say will change your mind). A blanket modifier for all private schools? Unless Dowling gets to crown themselves undefeated champions as the only 5A team in the state all year, that won’t solve things. Plus a modifier like that used in Illinois is expressly designed to hinder schools that don’t have fixed attendance boundaries. Guess what - with open enrollment, that’s EVERY school district in Iowa, public and private.
And as I’ve said in another thread, this isn’t simply an issue of public vs private. When you have schools like Waukee or Johnston or Ankeny Centennial or Valley dominating the Des Moines urban schools, futzing around with where Dowling or Assumption or Regina gets classified doesn’t fix that. There are serious, complicated issues at play that affect the participation and success differences between schools, and it will take serious, complicated discussions if we want to fix them.
But there’s no simple answer to make it “fair,” if that’s even the right word. Make the private schools separate from the publics? That’s going to be unworkable, unless you think folks will enjoy Dowling vs Des Moines Christian (and if your answer to that is, “I don’t care, that’s the private schools’ problem” nothing I can say will change your mind). A blanket modifier for all private schools? Unless Dowling gets to crown themselves undefeated champions as the only 5A team in the state all year, that won’t solve things. Plus a modifier like that used in Illinois is expressly designed to hinder schools that don’t have fixed attendance boundaries. Guess what - with open enrollment, that’s EVERY school district in Iowa, public and private.
And as I’ve said in another thread, this isn’t simply an issue of public vs private. When you have schools like Waukee or Johnston or Ankeny Centennial or Valley dominating the Des Moines urban schools, futzing around with where Dowling or Assumption or Regina gets classified doesn’t fix that. There are serious, complicated issues at play that affect the participation and success differences between schools, and it will take serious, complicated discussions if we want to fix them.
Private schools have no business playing in 1A and probably not in 2A either. If it were up to me I'd move private schools up to 3A or give them the option to compete in a private class. Regular season you can play who you want, but post season you'd play your class.
My point was Xavier was very successful as a 3A team playing in a 4A conference, when they went to districts in all classes, Xavier could have told the state that they wanted to stay in 4A. They chose to move to 3A, it all goes back to the fact the state of Iowa needs to introduce the multiplier for private schools. Forcing them to move up, if you are Dowling, there is nothing you can do, but for many others, it would even out the field.
KidSilverhair
Well-Known Member
But why should they volunteer to play in a class they’re too small to belong in? That’s my question - all the people saying Xavier “dropped” to 3A or “should have stayed in 4A” ... just because they agreed to play 4A as a condition of their conference membership, which doesn’t exist any more? Pella won back-to-back 3A championships, why isn’t anybody saying they should volunteer to play 4A? Harlan had a long run of success several years back, did anyone say the only fair thing for them to do was to volunteer to play up? Why is it just the private schools that are supposed to move up?
And again, a private school multiplier won’t fix the problem. Des Moines Lincoln or North or Mason City or Waterloo East aren’t going to get any more competitive because Xavier has to play 4A. Wahlert can’t hardly get to a winning record in 3A, and their roster numbers (Assumption’s, too) are in the 30s ... and you think they should have to play 4A? Like I said, there’s way more factors involved here, and simply saying “make it tougher for the private schools” isn’t the answer. Perhaps it’s part of the answer, but it’s not the only answer.
KidSilverhair
Well-Known Member
Again, my main beef with the trend of this discussion is “we must punish the private schools because they recruit.” Not every private school recruits, and some public schools recruit.
Should private schools be held to a higher standard athletically because they have certain advantages over some private schools? Perhaps. But there are also some public schools who have many of those same advantages.
How do we help make the less-successful schools more competitive? How do we increase interest and participation at these schools? What factors should we look at in making these decisions? Putting a punitive multiplier on all private schools and thinking that’ll take care of things is far too simplistic.
Should private schools be held to a higher standard athletically because they have certain advantages over some private schools? Perhaps. But there are also some public schools who have many of those same advantages.
How do we help make the less-successful schools more competitive? How do we increase interest and participation at these schools? What factors should we look at in making these decisions? Putting a punitive multiplier on all private schools and thinking that’ll take care of things is far too simplistic.
I'll admit I'm definitely biased since I am a Dowling grad, but with open enrollment in the DSM area, you have suburban schools "recruiting" as well. Plus, Dowling literally has to recruit every single student that's enrolled there.
This may be a bit out of the box and in no way do I support the idea of a "private" league consisting of all the private schools competing. However, if something like that were to form, I don't think it would be farfetched to see the private league turn into a football version of these high school prep leagues we see in basketball. Wouldn't this further encourage kids looking to pursue a collegiate career to join this private league? And as a result of the talent pool, you'd think the kids in the private league would get a lot more looks and attention form college coaches throughout the various divisions of the ncaa. I thought this was an interesting perspective that people probably haven't thought of...or it's 1am and I just need to go to bed.
This may be a bit out of the box and in no way do I support the idea of a "private" league consisting of all the private schools competing. However, if something like that were to form, I don't think it would be farfetched to see the private league turn into a football version of these high school prep leagues we see in basketball. Wouldn't this further encourage kids looking to pursue a collegiate career to join this private league? And as a result of the talent pool, you'd think the kids in the private league would get a lot more looks and attention form college coaches throughout the various divisions of the ncaa. I thought this was an interesting perspective that people probably haven't thought of...or it's 1am and I just need to go to bed.
This. I’ve been critical of Dowling in the past, but SEP recruits as much as they do...
Omg take the private school debate to the other thread. This crap has been discussed ad naseum.
There’s only one thing that’s more annoying than private schools recruiting players and that is private school “Insiders” on a message board.
There’s only one thing that’s more annoying than private schools recruiting players and that is private school “Insiders” on a message board.
why does west des moines valley not spilt into 2 schools?
2200 in 4 grades jesus.
look @ the 2 ankeny schools now 1100 an 1200 something like that
2200 in 4 grades jesus.
look @ the 2 ankeny schools now 1100 an 1200 something like that
Because they are afraid if they split into two schools they will not be a power in athletics. This from my former boss who was on the school board.
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That’s 2200 in grades 9, 10, 11 by the way. Add another 730 or so for the senior class
You'll never find me defending Xavier, but I don't think they had a choice in dropping to 3A, it all goes by enrollment, correct?
Your point is still a good one though. Their games would be so boring if you were a fan... they destroy everyone by 30 or more.... it's not even a contest.