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Overall Talent Level

Frak said:
This. Depth is WAY better now than under Mac. I remember when Mac signed Leaders and Curvey. Those two were basically four year starters who played every down of every game. Berryman would have been a four year starter too if he hadn't gotten in trouble. And there was no one behind those guys. Conversely, CPR brings in a JUCO DL this year not to start, but to be the 4th DL in a rotation and possibly compete to start in 2012. I think that CPR has better depth at RB, OL, DL, DB than Mac or Chizik usually had.

My one complaint is at WR and TE. IMO Mac had some nice WRs with the Danielson/Whitver/Young/Montgomery group and then the Blythe/Davis/Flynn/Sumrall/Hamilton group. They've went downhill since then. Neither Chizik nor Rhoads has been able to recruit a WR that would challenge for a spot in either one of those groups. At TE, CPR started with Catlett/Franklin/Hammerschmidt. Now it's just Hammerscmidt. There hasn't been a good plan really to replace the other two or fill the pipeline other than the JUCO Brun and hoping Pierce Richardson develops.

Overall, I think that the starting talent is fairly similar, maybe slightly better, under CPR compared to Mac and Chiz, but the depth is better for the most part. Out of the three staffs, I'd rate them like this:

Recruiting
1.Chiz
2.CPR
3.Mac

Game day coaching
1.CPR
2.Mac
3.Chiz

Grades/Legal issues
1.CPR
2.Chiz
3.Mac

S&C
1.CPR
2.Chiz
3.Mac

Player retention
1.CPR
2.Chiz
3.Mac

Depth
1.CPR
2.Chiz
3.Mac

Motivation
1.Mac
2.CPR
3.Chiz

Planning/strategy
1.CPR
2.Chiz
3.Mac
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I am not saying that Mac wasnt a good motivator, I think he was. I think that CPR is just as good ( I have obviously never been in the locker room to hear either of them except for the CPR vs NEbraska viral video). I would also argue that CPR's playcalling on the field helps to motivate his players during the games. I mean as a kid would you get more pumped when your coach strategically calles 2pts conversions and fake punts/FG's or if you knew that a 3rd and long would be a draw and a punt?

Other than that small fact I would agree with the rest of your ratings
 
cyhiphopp said:
Chizik is a "CEO" head coach. That type of coach can succeed with superior talent but will crash and burn with a team that is rebuilding/developing. This is directly reflected in his records at ISU and then at Auburn. We also saw an example of this with Texas last year. CEO Mack Brown and his staff did not handle the transition to the post Colt McCoy era well at all either.

ISU needs a coach that can get the most out of existing talent and build for the future. Illustrated by CPR winning a bowl game the first year with Chiziks players.
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I agree that Chizik is a "CEO" coach - which made the hiring of his fishing buddies even more infuriating.
 
I felt that Chizik was a better game day coach/strategist than Mac.

Mac was terrible at gameday strategy outside of playing Iowa. He won some games because he was great outside of game day strategy.
 
jdoggivjc said:
I agree with most of what you said, except for this one. I don't know how you can possibly give Chiz the #2 spot in planning/strategy when he had a 5-19 record at ISU, largely due to his planning and strategy. Let's take the Colorado game for instance - last play of the game, ___ and goal from the 1 with :01 on the clock, when we've effectively run the ball right down Colorado's throat the entire game, we run the ball outside and it gets absolutely stuffed, as if they knew it was coming. Not to mention he tried forcing a square peg into a round hole by insisting on playing a defense (cover 2) that we simply did not have the personnel to play.

Yeah, Chizik has had success at Auburn - he actually hired some coordinators that actually know how to coach and strategize their side of the ball instead of hiring a couple of fishing buddies that made a pact two decades earlier.

I'm not saying Mac was this outstanding, underappreciated strategist - he wasn't. But holy **** Chizik's strategies were a big part of his failed tenure at ISU....
Click to expand...

By Planning/Strategy, I didn't mean playcalling. I mean planning what positions to recruit and having a long-term vision for improvement.
 
BirdOfWar said:
I think it might be too early to tell if the talent level has improved, IMO. I think we are recruiting more athletic people, but that doesn't always equal more talent.....if that makes sense. I think we need a couple more years to really be able to tell.

I think the coaches are definitely getting a little more out of the talent we do have.
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I think is definately true, Chiz kind of started this trend and the current staff has really done a good job of it. As far as overall talent its tough to say, I'd say this years and last years teams weren't much different than most past ISU teams. A couple strong units and defininately some weak spots as well. That seems to be the trend for ISU, its like being strong in one spot leaves a weakness other places. I think this staff has done a nice job bringing guys along and kind of balancing things out.
 
Frak said:
By Planning/Strategy, I didn't mean playcalling. I mean planning what positions to recruit and having a long-term vision for improvement.
Click to expand...

See, I wouldn't label that "Planning/Strategy", I'd label that "Program Building" or something similar. "Planning/Strategy" to me has more of a "what are you going to do to win the game? How are you going to prepare for the game? What tactics are you going to employ? What plays are you going to run under particular circumstances?" That's Planning/Strategy.

Recruiting and long-term improvement are all aspects of Program Building.
 
i'd compare the 2010 team to the 2004 team. Which would be behind 2005, 2000, 2001 and 2002. Im not sure if we were better or not in 2009 than in 2010. Might have been better early on in 2010 I'd say at least.

Al_4_State said:
I felt that Chizik was a better game day coach/strategist than Mac.

Mac was terrible at gameday strategy outside of playing Iowa. He won some games because he was great outside of game day strategy.
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When was Chiz good (or "better") at gameday coaching? lol

if anything, gameday coaching is largely the assistant coaches job essentially.

MacFarland > Cotton
 
If you think Chizik is a better gameday coach than Mac, the 2008 Iowa game called and said not having a F'ing play or 3 in mind for the offense when coming out of a timeout, and still getting a delay penalty is a poor excuse for a game manager.

I still would like to punch people and random objects when thinking about that situation. Chiznit probably had little to do with the offense...but you gotta have your coaches heads ready with a some contingency options for a crucial situation like that.

I can still see AA to this day spinning his finger....get a damn play called already!
 
Al_4_State said:
I felt that Chizik was a better game day coach/strategist than Mac.

Mac was terrible at gameday strategy outside of playing Iowa. He won some games because he was great outside of game day strategy.
Click to expand...

IMO, Jean Chizik was the worst game day coach at ISU. There are too many examples of his incompetence at that time. And yes, I know the 90's of I-State football well.
 
Close to the same. At times during the Mac era the talent was better, at times worse. I think the in-game coaching has been as good as I have ever seen at ISU, especially compared to Chizik.

But, the biggest difference that helped Dmac lead us to 5 straight bowls (and we should have been way better those years if we had a kicker and Dmac was better at in-game strategy): QB TALENT! That was the key to our success then. Sage and Seneca are still 2 of the best 50 or so QBs in the world right now. They have been among the best 2nd stringers in the NFL for several years. That was really key for us. When we won with Meyer at QB, we had one of our better defenses units.
 
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Al_4_State said:
I felt that Chizik was a better game day coach/strategist than Mac.

Mac was terrible at gameday strategy outside of playing Iowa. He won some games because he was great outside of game day strategy.
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I'm with you, Mac's teams would come into most games with a better strategy than the opposition and we would often take the lead early against teams superior to us. As soon as the tide started to turn or the other team made adjustments, Mac would usually stick to his guns and not readjust, or minimize damage as much as possible by running down clock. That is why Mac never made it to the next level at ISU imo.
 
there were 1000 reasons why we didn't make it "to the next level" with mac.

thats one
 
Think about it this way. We have at least four guys playing on this years defense who have a good if not great shot at the NFL. When was the last time we had that and two were Juniors? There are also a couple other fringe guys. Offensively, we don't have that but we also run a asytem that typically won't put a lot of guys in the NFL. We just won't recruit the skillset. What I mean is that we will have a lot of smaller backs and receivers. On the Oline, all things point to this years RS freshmen class as being awesome. I also think this last class as far as raw talent was as good as we have ever had. There's a lot of work to do there on teaching a lot of the guys how to play the game but the raw goods are there. Same with the last class to a lesser extent. We are on the right track.
 
yaman3 said:
I would argue we even have more depth of talent now than that year as well.
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Well, that may be a given.

I was thinking of the question of "overall talent level" in terms of Mac's overall tenure. As in, how the current team matches up with all of the various units. For example, the current corners may compare well to McCarney's best set of corners--which (I think) would be Ellis and Deandre.

I think that the linebackers are comparable--or better--than any group that Mac put together, especially if depth develops this Fall. Individually, Knott>Bowen or Dobbins, just off the top of my head.

The defensive line is a bit more problematic, as a unit it's simply nopt as good as Mac's best--which, admittedly, took a few years for him to assemble. However, even on those teams, the depth didn't go more than six deep. This team may go eight across the front. And individually...well, I may just match David Irving's athleticism with that of any end that played for Mac. on't have time to follow that further at the moment...

Punter? Ahead. Placekicker...even.

The offensive line, I would say is equal or better (talentwise) to Mac's best--some of those that blocked for Troy Davis.

Wide Receivers? Behind Mac's best groups. So far.

Tight end? With Franklin gone, perhaps equal. Banks, I believe, would be the standard.

Running back? Shontrelle isn't the equal of Troy Davis--but depth seems much better.

Quarterback? Well, that's a mystery, isn't it? How Jantz or Tiller compare to even Bandy will go a long way to determining "equality of talent".

And I am too tired to take it any further...packing it in. Good night, all!
 
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TedKumsher said:
If ISU ever gets the equal of Troy Davis, we will more than justify every heartache of the last decade.
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Ok, I didn't get to see enough of Troy Davis so I have to ask...

Was he that good, or was it a combination of good talent and a relentless dedication to running the ball by DMac. It seems like DMac ran the ball constantly even though ISU was getting killed by 20+.

For those of you with more exposure to TD, please let me know.
 
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