Just going to wait a few months for it to be on HBO. Already saw this movie as a TV series: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_(TV_series)
Nolan's Oppenheimer
- Thread starter dahliaclone
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Just going to wait a few months for it to be on HBO. Already saw this movie as a TV series: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_(TV_series)
It's distributed by Universal Pictures so it will be on Peacock, at least at first.
I just went to this last night. Such a terrific movie. I was emotionally drained by the end of it.
Having seen both, the movie is definitely not the series. Totally different premises...
Had no idea Jack Quaid played Richard Feynman until he was talking to Teller from the car at the Trinity test. Glad I made the effort to see it in theaters
There’s probably a minority of people out there that just couldn’t get past how much dialogue there is in this film. It does require a certain mindset so I think if you’re prepared to listen then one will enjoy it.
My wife and I are both the type of people who get distracted very easily by shiny objects, but in spite of that we were entranced from beginning to end. She did say that was one of her complaints though, that in some parts it just started to sound like it was an Aaron Sorkin script.
I’ll admit the first little bit was pretty boring for me. It picked up and I was hooked after Matt Damon’s character joined.
Overall I enjoyed the movie a lot but maybe had it a little too hyped up in my head. Seeing it described as an “all timer” I just didn’t quite get that vibe.
I would’ve liked a little less jumping back and forth between times. I don’t mind at all when films do it but there was some crazy scenes where they’d go back and forth multiple times in the span of a few minutes.
I also would’ve been fine with the movie starting at Damon’s character getting Oppenheimer on board for the Manhattan Project, and then diving into more of the trials and such post bombing.
Again, I enjoyed it. But probably won’t be one I’m too interested in rewatching for a quite awhile
I know if you are writing a fictional screenplay you think in those terms, but Tatlock was integral to Oppenheimer's life. They were twice engaged and were together for four years.
His involvement with her was a major gateway into his left-wing political activism in the 1930s, which of course comes back throughout the film. The fact he had to confess to an affair with her after his marriage to Kitty just how humiliatingly and metaphorically naked the hearing process would leave him.
So, this isn't a pointless underplot you can easily cut. Oppenheimer's relationship with Tatlock was one of the most important of his life and echoes throughout it even after she was dead.
There's been speculation about that but no real evidence produced.
I'll quote from American Prometheus about it --
In the years since, a number of historians and journalists have speculated about Tatlock's suicide. According to the coroner, Tatlock had eaten a full meal shortly before her death. If it was her intention to drug and then drown herself, as a doctor [child psychiatrist] she had to have known that undigested food shows the metabolizing of drugs into the system. The autopsy report contains no evidence that the barbiturates had reached her liver or other vital organs. Neither does the report indicate whether she had taken a sufficiently large dose of barbiturates to cause death. To the contrary, as previously noted, the autopsy determined that the cause of death was asphyxiation by drowning. These curious circumstances are suspicious enough -- but the coroner found a "faint trace of choral hydrate" in her system. If administered with alcohol, choral hydrate is the active ingredient of what was then commonly called a "Mickey Finn" -- knockout drops. In short, several investigators has speculated Jean may have been "slipped a Mickey" and then forcibly drown in her bathtub.
The coroner's report indicated that no alcohol was found in her blood. (The coroner, however, did find some pancreatic damage, indicating that Tatlock had been a heavy drinker.) Medical doctors who have studied suicides -- and read Tatlock's autopsy report -- say that it is possible she drowned herself. In this scenario, Tatlock could have eaten a last meal with some barbiturates to make herself sleepy and then self-administered chloral hydrate to knock herself out while kneeling over the bathtub. If the dose of the chloral hydrate was large enough, Tatlock could have plunged her head into the bathtub water and never revived. She then would have died from asphyxiation. Tatlock's "psychological profile" fits the profile of a high-functioning individual suffering from "******** depression." As a psychiatrist working in a hospital, Jean had easy access to potent sedatives, including chloral hydrate. On the other hand, said one doctor shown the Tatlock records, "If you were clever and wanted to kill someone, this is the way to do it."
Elsewhere (something the film makes no reference to)...
Robertson [Priscilla Robertson, a childhood and lifelong friend of Jean Tatlock] and many other friends were unaware that Tatlock was struggling to cope with issues surrounding her sexual orientation. Jackie Oppenheimer [Robert's sister-in-law] later reported Jean as telling her that her psychoanalysis had revealed latent homosexual tendencies. At the time, Freudian analysts regarded homosexuality as a pathological condition to be overcome.
[...]
Jean confided to [Mason Roberson, another friend of hers] that she was a lesbian; she told Roberson that in an effort to overcome her attraction to women she "had slept with every bull she could find."
The Church Commission specifically looked into Tatlock's death and found no evidence the CIA or the FBI was involved. Oppenheimer always believed she was a tortured soul not long for this world.
I think it was a suicide. It was a tragic end for a brilliant young woman and pediatrician who could never quite find herself in a world unlikely to accept who she was -- lesbian or bisexual (something neither Freudians or communists were very accepting of, which had to make her feel trapped). She had well-documented mental health problems but never found the exact help she needed to right things.
I'll quote from American Prometheus about it --
In the years since, a number of historians and journalists have speculated about Tatlock's suicide. According to the coroner, Tatlock had eaten a full meal shortly before her death. If it was her intention to drug and then drown herself, as a doctor [child psychiatrist] she had to have known that undigested food shows the metabolizing of drugs into the system. The autopsy report contains no evidence that the barbiturates had reached her liver or other vital organs. Neither does the report indicate whether she had taken a sufficiently large dose of barbiturates to cause death. To the contrary, as previously noted, the autopsy determined that the cause of death was asphyxiation by drowning. These curious circumstances are suspicious enough -- but the coroner found a "faint trace of choral hydrate" in her system. If administered with alcohol, choral hydrate is the active ingredient of what was then commonly called a "Mickey Finn" -- knockout drops. In short, several investigators has speculated Jean may have been "slipped a Mickey" and then forcibly drown in her bathtub.
The coroner's report indicated that no alcohol was found in her blood. (The coroner, however, did find some pancreatic damage, indicating that Tatlock had been a heavy drinker.) Medical doctors who have studied suicides -- and read Tatlock's autopsy report -- say that it is possible she drowned herself. In this scenario, Tatlock could have eaten a last meal with some barbiturates to make herself sleepy and then self-administered chloral hydrate to knock herself out while kneeling over the bathtub. If the dose of the chloral hydrate was large enough, Tatlock could have plunged her head into the bathtub water and never revived. She then would have died from asphyxiation. Tatlock's "psychological profile" fits the profile of a high-functioning individual suffering from "******** depression." As a psychiatrist working in a hospital, Jean had easy access to potent sedatives, including chloral hydrate. On the other hand, said one doctor shown the Tatlock records, "If you were clever and wanted to kill someone, this is the way to do it."
Elsewhere (something the film makes no reference to)...
Robertson [Priscilla Robertson, a childhood and lifelong friend of Jean Tatlock] and many other friends were unaware that Tatlock was struggling to cope with issues surrounding her sexual orientation. Jackie Oppenheimer [Robert's sister-in-law] later reported Jean as telling her that her psychoanalysis had revealed latent homosexual tendencies. At the time, Freudian analysts regarded homosexuality as a pathological condition to be overcome.
[...]
Jean confided to [Mason Roberson, another friend of hers] that she was a lesbian; she told Roberson that in an effort to overcome her attraction to women she "had slept with every bull she could find."
The Church Commission specifically looked into Tatlock's death and found no evidence the CIA or the FBI was involved. Oppenheimer always believed she was a tortured soul not long for this world.
I think it was a suicide. It was a tragic end for a brilliant young woman and pediatrician who could never quite find herself in a world unlikely to accept who she was -- lesbian or bisexual (something neither Freudians or communists were very accepting of, which had to make her feel trapped). She had well-documented mental health problems but never found the exact help she needed to right things.
Hoover's FBI and Dulles' CIA were way off their ******* leash.
I'm not sure how much things have changed.
One of my main takeaways from American Prometheus and Oppenheimer is how easily law enforcement and "national security" bureaucracies can force their political preferences on all of us.
They certainly did with Oppenheimer. They did it out of at least some legitimate but overzealous anticommunism (even though Oppenheimer was never a communist and his political activities in the 1930s mostly involved supporting the Spanish Republicans against Franco, evacuating Jewish colleagues and his family from Europe while they still had a chance, and small-time union organizing) though also for his heartful and reasonable reservations about the dangers posed to human civilization by thermonuclear weapons.
Much of the evidence against him during that hearing was gathered through illegal wiretaps, ones that would not be admissible in a real court of law, and Oppenheimer's attorneys had no discovery.
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I’m interested in how Feynman is portrayed. Haven’t seen the film yet, but have seen a lot about him on the Caltech campus. Seems to have been a bit of a complicated person. We have his Lectures on Physics somewhere around the house, but I’m not planning on that for light reading.
Finally saw this last night. Really well done. It helped going into it realizing that a large chunk of the movie was about about Oppenheimer's perceived political affiliation and the scheming of Strauss.
The trailers really focused on assembling the team of scientists, the making of the bomb and the moral implications involved. If you went into the movie thinking that was the movie you were seeing, I can understand how it would drag on longer than needed.
I loved it. The detonation scene with the delayed sound was really impactful. The cast was phenomenal.
The trailers really focused on assembling the team of scientists, the making of the bomb and the moral implications involved. If you went into the movie thinking that was the movie you were seeing, I can understand how it would drag on longer than needed.
I loved it. The detonation scene with the delayed sound was really impactful. The cast was phenomenal.
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Having seen the movie, it was really interesting to listen to portions of Oppenheimer's lecture that took place in ISU's Great Hall in the Memorial Union several years after the end of WWII.
Oppenheimer was an incredibly articulate speaker. In fact, it seemed almost strange listening to someone who speaks without any ums, ahs, and you knows. He also had very kind words for the deceased ISU professor who was a former colleague of his and for whom his lecture was in honor of.
I don't think this is really a spoiler but...
He's barely in there. Couple of Easter eggs you'll recognize if you've read American Prometheus or if you have some detailed knowledge of Feynman's life and his niche at Los Alamos.
Scientists like Ernest Lawrence, David Hill, Niels Bohr, Edward Teller, Albert Einstein, and Isidor Rabi with more direct bearing on Oppenheimer's life end up with far more time on the screen.
Thanks! One of my sons had a private showing of the movie for a work thing but didn’t want to spoil much for me. He seemed to indicate that the movie is aptly titled as it is much more about Oppenheimer than a thorough detailing of the bomb development.
I think Feynman was lured into the project in part because his wife had an illness that was not curable at the time (I think tuberculosis) and there was a facility in Albuquerque that could care for her. Despite some disturbing interactions with women after her death, he was one of the first to support the first female professor for tenure at Caltech.
Ninja'd me. Had the same response in my head about how the other scientists at Los Alamos are largely referenced in passing. Teller IMO is larger because he feeds the story of Oppenheimer's life after Trinity, his work on the H-Bomb and his impact on the clearance committee.
Like I said I only figured out Quaid was Feynman after the windshield bit, since I'd read the line from him before about being the only one to see the Trinity test without polarized lenses.
Saw it last night. I liked it a lot. I'm not necessarily a movie goer. Or an actor fanatic, but I thought Matt Damon was very good. I was very very intrigued with how they would cast Oppenheimer as far as: was he a communist or not? I thought Nolan did a great job a "showing" or "leading" with his opinion but stayed very respectful and supported those who felt differently. My wife was very pleased to see Josh Hartnett make an appearance. It has been a while since we've seen him, and he did a very good job as well.
Great movie and my opinion of Oppenheimer is not changed.
Great movie and my opinion of Oppenheimer is not changed.
American Prometheus goes over that Oppenheimer was able to lure Feynman out of Princeton because of exactly that reason -- his wife was suffering from tuberculosis, and Oppenheimer found a sanatorium in Albuquerque nearby for her. Feynman supposedly went and saw her every weekend. Plus the dry, hot, southwestern climate was also thought to be more comfortable for the victims of the disease.
And yes, Oppenheimer is very much a biopic centering on the title scientist and not focused only on the Manhattan Project. It was obviously a pivotal moment in Oppenheimer's life and why his name will be know forever, but it spent at least as much time on his pre-Manhattan life and the AEC hearings.
I only remember Feynman in there 3-4 times -- the "windshield bit" @Bader points out below, which gave Feynman the dubious distinction of being the first person to witness a nuclear explosion with the naked eye, and then there's a few moments throughout where he's playing his set of bongos.
Teller is definitely the most important for being the "sequel" to Oppenheimer and the Manhattan Project to develop thermonuclear weapons and for testifying against him at the AEC hearings. He was also the scientist most vocally in their favor against Oppenheimer's attempts to block the program.
I think the source material certainly matters, and often not due to being misled, but because different books use different sources, and often you gain a different perspective that increases your understanding of it. I've probably read 75-100 books on World War 2, but I still find new information with each one that I read.
Oh, I don't think I expressed myself well (happens often) in my comment about Manchester's book. I meant to laud the author for his book, not suggest that it is particularly important in telling the Manhattan Project's story.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, the more one reads, the better off one is informed. Cheers.