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COLUMN: Why Bill Self should be the Big 12 CotY

WastedTalent said:
You're looking at it completely wrong. It would be different if the big 12 was down this year, or ku tied for 1st with a 13-5 record, but they went 15-3.

THREE losses. And oddly enough, they were 3 straight road losses. If you would have told me that ku would easily win the league, after those 3 losses, I would've said you're crazy.
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I think you're looking at it completely wrong...they were the UNANIMOUS pick by the coaches...you know, the guys who really know what the league is all about and what it takes to win in it.

A team that is the unanimous pick should distance themselves from the rest of the league...they should only have 3 losses.

It'd be different if OU and KU were the split pick by the coaches to win the league...then I could see giving it to Self. But when EVERY coach in the league picks you to win, then you should win the league going away...
 
abcguyks said:
To me it comes down to how one defines coaching. If 'coaching' is defined purely as the ability to get the best effort out of the talent they have to work with, Tubby Smith should win without a doubt. If 'coaching' is defined as getting the best results from your team regardless of talent, the coach for the regular season champ should win every year.

I think COY should be based on the first definition. Self had more to work with than any other team in the league (except possibly Lon Kruger), so does winning the league really mean that he is the best coach?
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Effort doesn't win championships. Every coaches job is to get wins and be first place.

Fwiw, I'm pretty sure Bill Self could have coached Tech to a 7th place finish.
 
clonehenge said:
I think you're looking at it completely wrong...they were the UNANIMOUS pick by the coaches...you know, the guys who really know what the league is all about and what it takes to win in it.

A team that is the unanimous pick should distance themselves from the rest of the league...they should only have 3 losses.

It'd be different if OU and KU were the split pick by the coaches to win the league...then I could see giving it to Self. But when EVERY coach in the league picks you to win, then you should win the league going away...
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That's not how it works. Every coach picks ku to win the league in the pre season, because they've won it EVERY year for 12 years. It's a matter of respect, more than who they really think is going to win it.
 
randomfan44 said:
Do you vote for Player of the Year by who is better than you thought they'd be or do you vote for the player who played the best?
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So is the best coaching job just whoever's team has a better record regardless of talent?
 
WastedTalent said:
That's not how it works. Every coach picks ku to win the league in the pre season, because they've won it EVERY year for 12 years. It's a matter of respect, more than who they really think is going to win it.
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And the fact that they returned nearly everyone from last year's team that won it, and also brought in a highly touted class.
 
WastedTalent said:
That's not how it works. Every coach picks ku to win the league in the pre season, because they've won it EVERY year for 12 years. It's a matter of respect, more than who they really think is going to win it.
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So you're telling me that if KU had no returning starters this year and lost their top 6 scorers from last year, the coaches would still have voted KU as the preseason #1 out of respect for Self?
 
clonehenge said:
So you're telling me that if KU had no returning starters this year and lost their top 6 scorers from last year, the coaches would still have voted KU as the preseason #1 out of respect for Self?
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I mean that is an extreme scenario, so probably not, but only if there was a team like OU this season, that returned almost everything.

I can tell you right now, before even knowing exactly what ku loses this year, that they will be preseason #1 next year.
 
I'm not sure if I agree that Self should get CotY. If it was based on the favorite winning as they should, then he should have more than the 4 that he has received over the last 12 years. It seems like the league has honored the coach that not only does what they are expected to, but exceeds all expectations as well.

It is true that he pundits (including our own on this site) expected the winner of the conference to be around the 4 or 5 loss mark, and it could have ended up that way. The fact that Kansas once again dominated the conference, but this year one extremely rich in talent is pretty remarkable. Is that enough of feat to secure the nod from the league for that honor? I don't know. Should it be? I don't know. There were some remarkable over achievers in the league this year. What Tubby and Shaka did in a league so rich in talent is pretty remarkable too. Shaka as a rookie coach found a groove and, like us, were in the hunt for a top three finish until the last month.

Looking at the past winners, the league hasn't chose a CotY whose team finished lower than the 4th in the conference standings during this 12 year Kansas domination, and that was Huggins last year. So, I don't think Huggins gets the nod again. There is only one time that they chose lower since the Big 12 was formed and that was Gillipsie and A&M at 7th in '04-'05. So we'll see. I can see the argument for Self this year, but that argument could have been made every single year in the past 12. Does he get his 5th in that span this year? Maybe, but there are a couple of other guys that deserve a look and if the past is any indicator it seems like about a 33% chance that they will go with the guy who was supposed to win it with an McD All-American recruiting class like he gets every single year.

My personal thoughts on what will happen is that they split it again and give Self a share and Kruger, Shaka, or Tubby a share as well.
 
CycloneWarrior said:
When deciding COY for 2015-2016, is it fair to take previous years into consideration? I would say no, therefore Tubby would get my vote, because few expected them to make the tournament.
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Texas Tech is going to finish 7th out of 10 teams....this is an award for BIG 12 COY....so what does them getting into the NCAA Tourney have to do with it? this award is for how your team performed in the conference race and fact is they will finish 7th.
 
WastedTalent said:
Yep. And Self was the coach that did all that.
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No argument there..and I'm not arguing he's not a great coach. But it shouldn't surprise anyone that this group of KU McDonald's All-Americans that won the big 12 last year are doing it again this year.

Texas Tech returned nearly the exact same group that went 3-15 last year and wasn't even competitive in most of their games, and Tubby is squeezing every bit of talent they have out of them. They were predicted in the toilet of the conference for a reason, and now they're a shoe-in for their first NCAA tourney berth since Bob Knight was there.
 
WastedTalent said:
I mean that is an extreme scenario, so probably not, but only if there was a team like OU this season, that returned almost everything.

I can tell you right now, before even knowing exactly what ku loses this year, that they will be preseason #1 next year.
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We definitely agree on that...I think the only players of significance they lose are Ellis and Traylor.

To me, it's hard to reward someone for doing what is expected of them...and that is the "burden" Self must live with...KU will always be in the conference preseason #1 picture because they are always stocked and always bring in great recruiting classes.

Just because he is able to maintain the conference win streak doesn't mean he should win COY though...maybe a Lifetime Achievement Award?
 
jimlahey said:
Texas Tech is going to finish 7th out of 10 teams....this is an award for BIG 12 COY....so what does them getting into the NCAA Tourney have to do with it? this award is for how your team performed in the conference race and fact is they will finish 7th.
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It's for the best coaching job, not just who's team does the best...otherwise it'd go to whoever's team won the conference every year.

The best coaching job is NOT always going to be who's team has the best record.
 
MuseumFaux said:
I'm not sure if I agree that Self should get CotY. If it was based on the favorite winning as they should, then he should have more than the 4 that he has received over the last 12 years. It seems like the league has honored the coach that not only does what they are expected to, but exceeds all expectations as well. It is true that he pundits (including our own on this site) expected the winner of the conference to be around the 4 or 5 loss mark, and it could have ended up that way. The fact that Kansas once again dominated the conference, but this year one extremely rich in talent is pretty remarkable. Is that enough of feat to secure the nod from the league for that honor? I don't know. Should it be? I don't know. There were some remarkable over achievers in the league this year. What Tubby and Shaka did in a league so rich in talent is pretty remarkable too. Shaka as a rookie coach found a groove and, like us, were in the hunt for a top three finish until the last month. Looking at the past winners, the league hasn't chose a CotY whose team finished lower than the 4th in the conference standings during this 12 year Kansas domination, and that was Huggins last year. So, I don't think Huggins gets the nod again. There is only one time that they chose lower since the Big 12 was formed and that was Gillipsie and A&M at 7th in '04-'05. So we'll see. I can see the argument for Self this year, but that argument could have been made every single year in the past 12. Does he get his 5th in that span this year? Maybe, but there are a couple of other guys that deserve a look and if the past is any indicator it seems like about a 33% chance that they will go with the guy who was supposed to win it with an McD All-American recruiting class like he gets every single year. My personal thoughts on what will happen is that they split it again and give Self a share and Kruger, Shaka, or Tubby a share as well.
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This basically means that the coach whose team is chosen 1st in preseason is removed from consideration since it is impossible to "exceed expectations". That doesn't seem very intelligent. then you end it by saying you'd give Smart a share of the CoY award, ignoring the fact that he was picked 4th in the preseason but is currently in 6th.
 
Clone_12 said:
No argument there..and I'm not arguing he's not a great coach. But it shouldn't surprise anyone that this group of KU McDonald's All-Americans that won the big 12 last year are doing it again this year.

Texas Tech returned nearly the exact same group that went 3-15 last year and wasn't even competitive in most of their games, and Tubby is squeezing every bit of talent they have out of them. They were predicted in the toilet of the conference for a reason, and now they're a shoe-in for their first NCAA tourney berth since Bob Knight was there.
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so let's say that for whatever reason next year KU goes 3-15 in the big 12. the following year they go 9-9....does Bill Self then deserve the COY because they won 6 more games than the previous year?
 
jimlahey said:
so let's say that for whatever reason next year KU goes 3-15 in the big 12. the following year they go 9-9....does Bill Self then deserve the COY because they won 6 more games than the previous year?
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If they did it with a bunch of scrubs that nobody expected anything out of, probably?

If you hand me KU's roster I'm going to win more games than I would with Texas Tech's roster. It wouldn't necessarily mean I did a better coaching job.
 
Clone_12 said:
If they did it with a bunch of scrubs that nobody expected anything out of, probably?

If you hand me KU's roster I'm going to win more games than I would with Texas Tech's roster. It wouldn't necessarily mean I did a better coaching job.
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I see your point but isn't recruiting part of the NCAA coaching job?
 
There is a pretty good chance that Kansas finishes 3 wins ahead of the 2nd place team in a conference everyone was blowing their load as far and away the best, and yet some want to say it's not a big deal cause KU has talent. Seems pretty ridiculous.
 
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