Well then we disagree. Fred would love to have KU's roster. Just can't get, yet. I think Self is the best in the country, I just hold fred in much higher regard than you do.
Better Coach - Self or Dreamy
- Thread starter BloodyBuddy
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Well then we disagree. Fred would love to have KU's roster. Just can't get, yet. I think Self is the best in the country, I just hold fred in much higher regard than you do.
Not to "pile on" Fred, but he's also 1-8 head-to-head vs. Self so far.
As many have said, Hoiberg is a great fit for Iowa State and has gotten impressive results coming in with no HC experience. But this is "better coach right now" thread, and he has a lot of ground to cover to get in comparative discussion.
As many have said, Hoiberg is a great fit for Iowa State and has gotten impressive results coming in with no HC experience. But this is "better coach right now" thread, and he has a lot of ground to cover to get in comparative discussion.
Is this a real thread? Are some of you really trying to say Hoiberg is a better coach than a guy that has 13 conf. championships and 1 nat. championship? Kind of funny imo.
One coach for the next 10 years? Self and it isn't close. If you only have ten years then you will need a guy that can get guys in the door that are elite talents and coach them up as quick as possible. I have not seen a coach as good at getting guys developed over the course of their careers as Self.
People say "he has all elite recruits". Go look at the roster he rolled out there in the national title game in 2012. Some were To 50 ranked recruits that were major projects. Withey was the worst big I have ever seen in his first year at Kansas. I doubted that he would be able to give good minutes by the end of his career let alone be what he was in '12. Taylor and EJ are friggin' MORONS. How Self got a team led by that knucklehead Taylor to a title game is beyond me. Guy has the smarts of the ball he was tossing into the stands every other play. Kevin Young was shagging balls for a womens JUCO team before landing at Kansas. NO BUSINESS being a starter on a Final Four team. Great heart, great motor, but the offensive skills of a YMCA player. First off the bench was a walk on Zach Efron lookalike.
There is no better coach for ISU than Fred. That is all I care. There are a lot of great coaches, Self is among them. But I would not trade...
I believe that Hoiberg's greatest strength, is that he is a great at evaluating talent. He has less pull however to get the big recruits because he is coach at ISU and not one of the schools that have won national championships. He is better at evaluating talent than Self, but has less ability to bring in big time talent. Therefore, he is just what ISU needs.
Do you have any proof for this? I mean all I've heard is that Self has more talent. Sure Hoiberg grabs guys like Niang who do well relative to ranking but don't you think Hoiberg would take the guys Self is? That's just a ridiculous statement at this point.
Also, do some of you not realize recruiting and getting that talent is part of being a college coach?
Are you serious? KU basketball recruits itself a hell of a lot more than most other places, including ISU.
Yes, being a good coach means being a good recruiter at the college level.
To have a fair analysis you'd have to determine to what level each coach is raising their respective institution's average recruiting. Hoiberg has clearly raised his. Kansas? Kansas always has had top talent. Look at their coaching history:
Kansas Jayhawks men's basketball - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Every coach has had final 4s there. Every coach gets plenty of talent there. You cant say the same at ISU. Hoiberg is clearly elevating ISU's recruiting and id say the differential from the norm is more in Hoiberg's favor on this even if Kansas is drawing overall better talent.
What are you TALKING about? Better at evaluating talent? Do you think every player that plays at Kansas is a Top 25 recruit? Self has made a career of coaching up diamonds in the rough. Look, I get the dreaminess of having an ISU guy at ISU and having him coach up the players he has to be able to pull the program out of the lull it was in. But honestly, don't get carried away. Hoiberg does an excellent job of identifying talent in recruiting and in transfers. But Self has turned it into an art form the last five years.
There isn't anything wrong with saying that Hoiberg is an excellent coach but Self is one of the best in the game. It's no slight to Hoiberg or ISU.
So you're basically saying that because Kansas has been excellent before, Self gets no credit for being excellent there while Hoiberg gets extra credit for taking ISU from sucking to pretty good. That's your heartstrings talking, not your brain. If you read this on any other fan forum you would laugh at it.
Guys have gone to UCLA and failed miserably. Why? Because they have not recruited well and not gotten results in the W/L column. Why didn't Gillespie just roll into Kentucky and keep making Final Fours? Whats going on with Crean at Indiana? There is no comparison to previous results or recruiting to determine success. There is only success. Previously low levels of success are a factor in whether or not fans are happy with the results, but it doesn't change what the results are.
If you want "differential from the norm", Self's 6 year stretch from the 06-07 season to the 11-12 season resulted in 197 wins, the most by ANY coach in the history of the sport over 6 seasons. Sorry, but that far exceeds anything accomplished by even any other KU coaches prior to Self. And the last coach to win at least nine straight conference titles in a major conference was a coach by the name of John Wooden at UCLA. Self is doing far better than "Kansas basketball business as usual".
I'm sure its already been posted but Self is the better coach right now but that is due to Self being much more experienced than Hoiberg. I think that in time Hoiberg will be the better coach and will bolt for the NBA (not before winning ISU a few conference championships and deep NCAA runs). Self may never even go to the NBA.
You didn't evaluate my whole statement, you just picked out my opinion. It wasn't a ridiculous statement, it was an opinion, you are the one making ridiculous statements. It is impossible to evaluate empirically these kinds of attributes therefore we just give opinions. You don't seem to understand the difference between opinions and throwing out words like facts, and therefore stating your opinions as if they are fact is ridiculous.
You are a troll. I don't mind you coming here and stating your Kansas opinions, but that is just what they are, Kansas opinions. I have doubts about many of your statements, basically for reasons stated over and over about Kansas on this board. I am sorry, I will never be a fan of my "Self" like you are.
Any discussion on this comparison not rooting in fact will point to Self. Every single one. He has 13 conference champions with his last 16 teams. He will win his 10th consecutive Big 12 title this year. His one other year? 2nd. One other second and a 3rd. None of that is an opinion. Neither is the fact that Hoiberg hasn't won anything yet.
You stated that Hoiberg is better at evaluating talent. Maybe that's true but there's no evidence of it. Just because Self doesn't have to go out and find under the radar guys doesn't mean he can't. In fact, he has done it before but he was so damn good at it that he got to a place where he doesn't have to do that at the level he used to.
It is obvious you are a big fan of Self, and have followed him throughout his career. I am not, and haven't, therefore I can only go by head to head Self, Hoiberg match ups. Has Self ever beat ISU by much, and without some extra advantages given to the by the basketball powers that exist. Perhaps you don't see problems with the refereeing, and I respect that. I am just saying that in the time Hoiberg has been ISU coach, he has accomplished more, in my opinion, than Self in evaluating talent. You can't call him a better game coach because he has normally lost. To be a better game coach, let's face it, many things that happen in games are beyond an ISU coach's control.
Multiple ways to answer.
Self has had a better career
Hoiberg has more potential
I think Hoiberg is a better coach when you look back at both of them in the future. Assuming Hoiberg stays and continues his success he will be one of the all time great coaches as well as Self.
Self has had a better career
Hoiberg has more potential
I think Hoiberg is a better coach when you look back at both of them in the future. Assuming Hoiberg stays and continues his success he will be one of the all time great coaches as well as Self.
Head to head, even if you switch the one game clearly lost on a call, Hoiberg is what 2-8? That's not close. I'm not a "fan" of Self but I am a realist. There is no argument here at this point. That's not to say there won't be one in 10 or even 5 years. It's that right now, Self is unmatched by anyone in college basketball. Not a single coach has the consistency in their resume that Self does. About every 3 years you hear about KU maybe having a down year. Never happens. Also, if you have to bring up the refs, you have lost.