How do I want it both ways?
Last night I wouldn't want Duran at all. Twins were up 4-1 going into the 6th and 6-1 going into the 7th. No reason to use your best reliever in a game like that.
MLB: ***2024 Minnesota Twins***
- Thread starter Marcelason78
- Start date
How do I want it both ways?
Last night I wouldn't want Duran at all. Twins were up 4-1 going into the 6th and 6-1 going into the 7th. No reason to use your best reliever in a game like that.
Right. I would like to know where I'm trying to have it both ways?
Maybe I was not elegant in my wording.
Typically, I would want to use my best relief pitcher in the 8th or 9th to close out the game.
However, if there are high leverage situations in the 6th or 7th where you don't trust your middle relievers, its okay to use the best reliever in those innings. There is a chance you will score some runs and not have a high leverage situation. Alternatively, there is a chance your middle relievers lose control of a winnable game and you've wasted an opportunity to use your best RP to win a game.
Also, I'm not saying you ALWAYS put Duran in the 6th or 7th of a close game. I'm just saying it would be foolish to have a rule that says you NEVER put Duran in in the the 6th or 7th inning.
So you're saying the Brewers are being foolish with how they use Hader? I've never heard anyone in baseball agree.
And last night's "high leverage" moment for Twins pitchers was in the fourth, tie game, Torres up, baseloaded.
As AJ said, it was the key moment in the game.
If you read my post on Hader, you would know my answer is no. There is only one situation for the Brewers where I might have used him earlier than the 9th. Plus, the Brewers have some other GREAT middle relievers this year, so its not as critical.
Again, my idea is not a hard and fast rule either. I'm not saying you MUST use the best reliever early. I'm just saying it would be stupid to refuse to do so.
I’m just glad the Twins are relevant enough again that people give a **** who is pitching late in games.
This cannot be lost in the conversation. Rocco literally has so few bullets in the chamber that his hands are offer super tied.
Earlier than the 9th? You were talking about the 6th or 7th.
You really expect the Brewers to use Hader in the 6th or 7th?
If they didn't have reliable middle relievers, then absolutely.
The have reliable middle relievers and I only found 1 game they lost where it would have made sense to pitch him in the 7th.
The fact that they have some great middle relievers means they strategy they are using is working just fine. He's had a TON of saves of 1 run games, so he is getting those high leverage innings in the 9th. If his setup men were Duffey and Pagan, he's probably have 5 fewer save opportunities and they'd just be wasting him.
You have yet to give any specific examples of games where they used Duran wrong. At least I did some actual research and found 2 games (in a row) where they failed to use him in a situation you would agree with. You can't even do that and just spout off the "Closers should only end the game" cliche.
Sure, we don't have all stars in the pen, but if Duran is the only guy that is relied on to pitch "high leverage" situations in the 6th or 7th inning, Rocco might as well turn in his gun.
Any game where Pagan closed.
You use your best reliever in "high leverage" situations in the 9th.
Use him like Cleveland used to use Adam Miller or KC used Wade Davis.
The issue is that, although Miller and Davis were the best bullpen pitchers on those teams, they still had good, traditional closers. Maybe Moran, Jax, Megill or even Winder can do it. I think they probably wanted Alcala and Duran to fill those two spots but we don't know much about Alcala's condition.
Agree, since some believe we don't have any "GREAT middle relievers" it really wouldn't matter if we used Duran to hold in the "high leverage" 6th and 7th. These other bums would, of course, just blow it in the 8th and 9th.
Point some out to me please. I already pointed out the game on 6/2, where Duran pitched the 6th and 7th and Pagan blew it in the 8th. But what you are saying is that you would have trusted Pagan and Duran against the heard of the Tigers order in the 6th and 7th, so they should have saved Duran.
I already acknowledged the Duran blown save on 5/25, but Pagan blew the save in the 8th. Duran threw 14 pitches the night before, so he was available, but was he available for 2 innings? Sounds like Rocco was using your logic and saving Duran for the save in the 9th inning.
On 5/20, Pagan got the save. So I guess that was a mistake. I guess when Duffey came in in the 7th, gave up a HR to make it 4-2 and then had runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out, you would have preferred they bring in Pagan. Instead, they brought in Duran to eliminate the threat in the 7th and shut down the heart of the Royals order in the 8th. Interesting that you think that was a coaching mistake.
On 5/15, Pagan got a save. Duran had pitched the last 2 nights and was not available.
On 5/8, Pagan got a save. Duran threw 2 innings and 32 pitches the night before and was not available.
On 5/6, Pagan got the save. Duran only threw 14 pitches the night before, so he could have pitched, but he also gave up back to back home runs in the 8th for the first time that he really blew a game for the Twins. I'd have been fine with him getting right back on the horse the next night, but having a day to recover wasn't a crazy idea either.
On 4/26, Pagan blew a save. No reason not to pitch Duran. However, he had a 4.00 ERA at the time and hadn't been quite as dominant as he has been since, so its not completely unreasonable.
On 4/22, Pagan got a save. Duran pitched the night before and had not been as dominant as he has since, so its not completely unreasonable to go with Pagan.
On 4/21, Pagan got a save. Duran pitched the 6th in a 1-0 game against the top of the Royals order. He had a 6.00 ERA and had given up 4 runs in 3 innings in his last two appearances. It was also his 5th career MLB appearance.
On 4/12, Pagan go the loss. Pitched clean 7th, then walked Betts to start the eight, who came around as the go ahead run in what ended up being a 7-2 loss. Duran pitched the night before, so I'm sure Rocco wanted to rest him. Or maybe he was saving him for a save opportunity in the 9th. Probably should have used him in the 8th against the top of that brutal Dodgers lineup.
You buy some time using Duran in the 6th and 7th for the offense to add some insurance runs potentially.
Agree that Duran had not surfaced as their best reliever until May.
And we'll never know how games would have played out if Rocco did flip Pagan and Duran roles. There is no 'research' for that.
Agreed, but after April, there are literally 2 Twins losses that could have possibly flipped to wins if they flipped Pagan and Duran. There are also 4 Twins wins that could have possibly flipped to losses if they flipped Pagan and Duran. Since there is no way to prove what would happen, I'd say there is no way anyone can prove that Rocco is handling Duran incorrectly and more anecdotal evidence that Rocco is handling Duran in the correct way.
Agree there is no way to prove how past games would have played out.
But when it was posted that it would be a "waste" to use your best reliever as a 8/9 inning closer, I simply disagree. Some say having this differing opinion is 'spouting off', but that's CF.
Hope the Twins can take the series tonight.