WVU Appears to be in Trouble

[BMWallace]

I recently interviewed individuals for the Assessor position in our county in order to rank the top candidates for the position which would then be voted on by those in charge. We advertised locally and on the internet with 43 applicants. They were all good candidates and here’s what was surprising to me. One had a four year brick & mortar college degree in accounting and about 30 had taken financial courses from internet colleges. The other dozen had technical or junior college courses on their resumes. My point is that declining enrollment in traditional colleges and universities isn’t just less available students, there are other less expensive options available.

There are certainly some professions and fields that require a college degree when it really isn't necessary. Credential creep has been an issue gaining some traction in the last few years. Not every profession needs a Bachelors or higher. Associates and certificate programs need to be recognized as valid ways of building job skills. A lot of that issue has to do with hiring practices, and putting excessive requirements for job qualifications. Who doesn't love the classic entry level job asking for 2-5 years of experience.

 

[Gonzo]

What's your point?

How much do you think the President of a University should make?

I guess my point is all of these administrators making upwards of, or over, half a million dollars a year in salary while the university is bleeding money, firing faculty, slashing academic departments, etc.

 

[Gonzo]

Now go do state funding by year the past 25 yrs and adjust for inflation. These salary numbers are not the difference between having an LAS dept and not.

You're probably right, but IMO they indicate priorities for a public university being completely out-of-whack, and it's not unique to WVU.

 

[cyfan92]

College's have a HUGE deffered maintenance problem that never get's discussed. It's pretty easy to get a donor to pledge for a new building, but REALLY hard to impossible to give for maintenance and repairs...

https://www.controller.iastate.edu/far/finreport21.pdf

https://www.controller.iastate.edu/far/finreport18.pdf

Also, ISU doesn't have a debt problem, ~1% of the annual budget is spent on interest payments. Versus 62% spent on salaries and benefits..

Can someone explain to me what "academic support" and "institutional support" are??? A lot of expenses are down from 2018 versus the last budget, but these have stayed high or increased, despite significant enrollment declines. Is this the admin bloat or am I missing something?

 

[isufbcurt]

I guess my point is all of these administrators making upwards of, or over, half a million dollars a year in salary while the university is bleeding money, firing faculty, slashing academic departments, etc.

So you want a bunch of people making $50K/year running a University? Good luck getting qualified candidates.

 

[Gonzo]

So you want a bunch of people making $50K/year running a University? Good luck getting qualified candidates.

Qualified candidates? The university is financially imploding, they just fired >140 faculty members (which was matched by firing 1 upper level administrator I think), their budget shortfall is expected to be $75 million in the next few years. How good really are these administrators who are leading this sh*tshow?

 

[Gonzo]

The President salary seems like a bargain actually

That's his base, he makes well over that with other incentives. Gee is no prize. I lived in Columbus, OH in the late 90s when he was president there, pretty much universally hated. Then went to Brown where he lasted 2 years and was an utter failure before leaving under storm of criticism. The guy is a disaster.

 

[CycloneErik]

Measuring ROI based on current placement rates is just phenomenally stupid.

For those at home who don't know about these things, part of the stupid is that the placement rates are all kinds of jacked up and skewed. Colleges are just another business in the way they'll skew data like that.

For example, the grad school classic is to say that 100% of our graduates (fine print: who are seeking employment) land tenure-track/high-paying industry/whatever kind of jobs the program is selling. The "seeking" part is loosely defined so that it can nearly always be 100%, and suddenly all programs have amazing success rates.
Another current classic is just "our graduates find jobs" without clarifying what kind of job.

Doing an ROI sort of thing is just an excuse for rampant skewing and cheating of data by admins who basically only know how to do that anyway.

 

[cycloneG]

That's his base, he makes well over that with other incentives. Gee is no prize. I lived in Columbus, OH in the late 90s when he was president there, pretty much universally hated. Then went to Brown where he lasted 2 years and was an utter failure before leaving under storm of criticism. The guy is a disaster.

WVU troubles not surprising with Gee’s history of lavish spending - West Virginia Watch

West Virginia University currently has a $45 million budget shortfall, but how did the university get into this mess?

westvirginiawatch.com

He has quite the history of racking up large amounts of debt at universities

 

[CycloneErik]

Qualified candidates? The university is financially imploding, they just fired >140 faculty members (which was matched by firing 1 upper level administrator I think), their budget shortfall is expected to be $75 million in the next few years. How good really are these administrators who are leading this sh*tshow?

Hey, now. We all know that only the best and brightest rise to leadership positions in all fields.
I'm trying not to add a Brian Ferentz joke here, but, well, you know.

 

[0u812]

Measuring ROI based on current placement rates is just phenomenally stupid.

This type of thought really confirms the problem will continue to get worse.

 

[BigTurk]

You're probably right, but IMO they indicate priorities for a public university being completely out-of-whack, and it's not unique to WVU.

Make no mistake, administrators never take a hair cut. When budgets get cut, and/or jobs eliminated, it never happens among the administrators.

College's have a HUGE deffered maintenance problem that never get's discussed. It's pretty easy to get a donor to pledge for a new building, but REALLY hard to impossible to give for maintenance and repairs...

https://www.controller.iastate.edu/far/finreport21.pdf

https://www.controller.iastate.edu/far/finreport18.pdf

Also, ISU doesn't have a debt problem, ~1% of the annual budget is spent on interest payments. Versus 62% spent on salaries and benefits..

Can someone explain to me what "academic support" and "institutional support" are??? A lot of expenses are down from 2018 versus the last budget, but these have stayed high or increased, despite significant enrollment declines. Is this the admin bloat or am I missing something?

Academic support = academic advisors, student support specialists (accommodations, testing center staffing, etc.).

Institutional support = could be a lot of things, but immediately comes to mind is institutional research, financial aid staff, counselors, IT, etc.

 

[cowgirl836]

This type of thought really confirms the problem will continue to get worse.

I'm absolutely correct in what I said. It will get worse though because too many people think (and vote) based on a narrow, short sighted box such as your comment.

 

[ImJustKCClone]

Education at a university needs to evolve. No offense to the LAS portion of ISU, if it isnt cutting it, I guess thats how it goes. Degrees that have a poor ROI will continue to struggle for enrollment, and thats going to continue.

I can see that even universities evolving to include more high end trades, and more budget options for students. The amount of money a kid has to invest for a poor ROI is not going to work long term.

I was fortunate to go to ISU in the mid 90s so I speak from a bit of an out of date position, so take that for what thats worth.

If all you think they should offer or emphasize is "high end trades" you are ignoring the true calling of a university...a WELL-ROUNDED education.

 

[Cyforce]

Like most things today the cost of higher education is out of control. CCs like DMACC set their programs so 100% of their classes would transfer to state universities. This and AP classes reduce revenue for Universities. So it becomes a vicious cycle students need fewer credits from state universities so the cost per credit goes up to make up for it driving more incoming students to seek alternate paths to getting a degree.

 

[CycloneErik]

Like most things today the cost of higher education is out of control. CCs like DMACC set their programs so 100% of their classes would transfer to state universities. This and AP classes reduce revenue for Universities. So it becomes a vicious cycle students need fewer credits from state universities so the cost per credit goes up to make up for it driving more incoming students to seek alternate paths to getting a degree.

You're identifying the wrong reason for those spiraling costs. Unis raise costs because states slashed their support.
Schools like DMACC adjusted their credit schedules primarily to pay instructors less, i.e. changed classes from 4 credit hours to 3 while expecting the same material and effort at a school that pays by the credit hour.

For example, that change costs me $3000 this semester alone.

The answer for this lies in the Cave, but this state won't be approaching that answer anytime soon.

 

[isufbcurt]

Qualified candidates? The university is financially imploding, they just fired >140 faculty members (which was matched by firing 1 upper level administrator I think), their budget shortfall is expected to be $75 million in the next few years. How good really are these administrators who are leading this sh*tshow?

Maybe the current ones aren't competent but lowering the pay for key positions isn't going to attract qualified people.

 

[CloneFan65]

How do you determine what a good ROI is and who makes that decision? There are many employers who do want people educated in the Humanities and Social Sciences. Those employers wants skills like problem solving, communication, people-to-people, cultural competency, etc (there is data and research that backs all this up), and not just engineering or computer skills.

Though taking classes at a Community College may, and I stress may, save some money it is nothing more than a glorified 13th and 14th grades. I say may because as someone who works with Community College students transferring into ISU I can say many are here more than two years. I have this conversation with students and parents all the time. They think they can get an AA and transfer to ISU and be done in two years. That isn't necessarily true. It all depends if a student is taking the correct classes at the CC. If a student wants a STEM major, well, forget it. There is no way a STEM majors transferring in from a CC will be out of ISU in two years. ISU has a heavy presence at DMACC and we tell their students and their advisors this all the time and most do not listen. I have this conversation with friends who have college aged kids and they simply don't believe me until it hits them in the face. The automatic assumption is two years at a Community College, then two years at ISU then done. For most that isn't true and the tuition savings isn't that much.

And thank you for the car loan statement. This is absolutely true. Families won't think twice about a large car loan, or boat loan, or mortgage, but an education? God no! My first year in higher education I worked with a student who was crying about tuition costs. Said parents had so much debt because little brother was really sick, he almost died, and they had so many medical bills. All of that was true, and the College gave them a bunch of gift money as a result. Well, a few months after enrolling the student let it slip that parents were building a new house, had a cabin on the river with a boat, and there was no way they were going to give those things up for college. Priorities are way out of wack.

End rant.

As someone who teaches math and is currently the Chair of Math and Science at a community college in a state other than Iowa, I would disagree with your point of view. Maybe the CCs in Iowa aren't up to par, but where I teach the students come out with a better education for their first two years than the students at the state university do. Students are taking smaller classes taught by professional educators versus the students at the state university who sit in giant lecture halls taught by graduate students or faculty who only look at teaching a 100 or 200 level class as a distraction from what they get paid to do, research and bringing in grant money. Our rigor is at least what they get at the state universities, and our students do well at the university level. The biggest issue is that the large state universities don't prioritize education. Instead they gain their reputations from research and grants.

 

[CloneFan65]

Exactly my point to those playing the ROI card. Humanities will win that game because people who can think critically, understand human emotions, interactions, and motivations will always be in demand over who knows how to operate the hot software of 2023.

Agreed. If you look at what the workforce is telling colleges they want in a graduate, their top listed desired outcomes are communication skills and critical thinking skills. They can train employees in the specific technical skills needed to perform the job.

 

[CycloneErik]

As someone who teaches math and is currently the Chair of Math and Science at a community college in a state other than Iowa, I would disagree with your point of view. Maybe the CCs in Iowa aren't up to par, but where I teach the students come out with a better education for their first two years than the students at the state university do. Students are taking smaller classes taught by professional educators versus the students at the state university who sit in giant lecture halls taught by graduate students or faculty who only look at teaching a 100 or 200 level class as a distraction from what they get paid to do, research and bringing in grant money. Our rigor is at least what they get at the state universities, and our students do well at the university level. The biggest issue is that the large state universities don't prioritize education. Instead they gain their reputations from research and grants.

This is how it ought to be.

Here in Iowa, we're primarily teaching high school students whose districts are funding their early college classes. That's at least the picture for online community college teaching. Your points still apply, though, just in a different mode.