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What constitutes Hall-of-Fame worthy?

Jeremy

Jeremy

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Feb 28, 2006
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In pro sports, you hear all the time about "future Hall-Of-Famer" X. But what constitutes Hall-Of-Fame worthy in your mind?

Championships?
Personal Stats?
MVP Awards?
Longevity?

The specific scenarios I'm thinking of are guys like the below list - using recent QBs for this exercise. Each had really good attributes, or set records, or won champs, or this or that, but does just being really good constitute HOF? I could make an argument for several, but some just seem ludicrous to me even though they're often talked about in that context. I purposely left out guys that probably 95% of posters would agree are HOF (Brock Purdy, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, etc).

Are these HOF? Why?
  • Matthew Stafford
  • Donovon McNabb (Go Eagles!)
  • Matt Hasselbeck
  • Michael Vick (Go Eagles!)
  • Carson Palmer
  • Daunte Culpepper
  • Eli Manning
  • Tony Romo
  • Philip Rivers
  • Ben Roethlisberger
  • Steve McNair
  • Rich Gannon
  • Drew Bledsoe
  • Matt Ryan
  • Jeff Garcia
  • Russell Wilson
 
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Jeremy said:
In pro sports, you hear all the time about "future Hall-Of-Famer" X. But what constitutes Hall-Of-Fame worthy in your mind?

Championships?
Personal Stats?
MVP Awards?
Longevity?

The specific scenarios I'm thinking of are guys like the below list - using recent QBs for this exercise. Each had really good attributes, or set records, or won champs, or this or that, but does just being really good constitute HOF? I could make an argument for several, but some just seem ludicrous to me even though they're often talked about in that context. I purposely left out guys that probably 95% of posters would agree are HOF (Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, etc).

Are these HOF? Why?
  • Matthew Stafford
  • Donovon McNabb (Go Eagles!)
  • Matt Hasselbeck
  • Michael Vick (Go Eagles!)
  • Carson Palmer
  • Daunte Culpepper
  • Eli Manning
  • Tony Romo
  • Philip Rivers
  • Ben Roethlisberger
  • Steve McNair
  • Rich Gannon
  • Drew Bledsoe
  • Matt Ryan
  • Jeff Garcia
  • Russell Wilson
Click to expand...
My list who makes it.

Stafford
Eli
Rivers
Ben
Ryan
Russell Wilson probably needs to play a couple more years with success.
 
I think championships, followed closely by other successes (top stat lines etc.) followed by career length are the top factors IMHO. It probably varies based on positions played some also, especially in baseball and football.
 
It should be individual performances, but it's so hard to measure 1 person's value on a football team. Great players have been lost on bad teams and never given their full credit. Stats tell a story, but inflated stats for one player can equal poor overall team performance. And linemen are crucial to a team's success, but it's hard to quantify their worth since they work as a unit.

Sorry for the Debbie Downer vibe, but the HOF used to be something I held in reverence growing up. I'd watch the induction and listen to the speeches while they showed highlights. But over-saturation and over-analysis has really ruined a lot of it for me.
 
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It is likely weird but to me a QB since 1967 that never won the championship likely shouldnt be considered unless they put up ridiculous stats. That flushes out a bunch of QBs right at the start leaving you with around 30. Then look at Pro Bowls, career length and stats in no particular order. So not everyone who won a championship fits the bill. I dont feel that way about any other position though as career length and stats likely determine it for me. Specifically if they set some sort of record for relevant stats. For a coach it is championships, career length and and record. A coach with a 50/50 record and one good season winning a superbowl does not make the HOF to me. Politics and cultural firsts really shouldnt be in there but who am I to say that.
 
Great question. Timely with the induction of Scott Rolen into the baseball HOF. He never struck me as one of the top 10-15 players during his career. But if the position a guy plays comes into consideration. Maybe I can be convinced he was elite.

Specific to your question about FB & QB's. It's a blend of stats and winning. And winning doesn't mean SB Rings as winning Super Bowls is a team accomplishment. Stafford & Eli Manning fall into this group for me.

Also at the QB position, stats can be deceptive if the player's team is crappy or can't run the ball. IMO Stafford falls into this group as well. Philip Rivers could to, but IMO he was a better QB and winner than Stafford over his career.

Of the group you list, I would only have:
  • Big Ben - a sure thing HOFer.
  • Russell Wilson - last year created doubts. But his first 10 years were definitely HOF worthy. I think he'll rebound the next few years and get in.
  • Philip Rivers - He has the yards and TD's, but he didn't have a great playoff record. But over the last 15 years, IMO he was the next best QB after Peyton, Brees, Rodgers and Brady.
I would leave Eli out even with his 2 Super Bowl wins. Without those wins, I think he was a very average QB. The one guy I struggle with a bit is Matt Ryan. He has great stats, but he didn't win many playoff games and I think he is a function of modern offenses. A QB can have great stats, but only win around 50% of his games.
 
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Jeremy said:
In pro sports, you hear all the time about "future Hall-Of-Famer" X. But what constitutes Hall-Of-Fame worthy in your mind?

Championships?
Personal Stats?
MVP Awards?
Longevity?

The specific scenarios I'm thinking of are guys like the below list - using recent QBs for this exercise. Each had really good attributes, or set records, or won champs, or this or that, but does just being really good constitute HOF? I could make an argument for several, but some just seem ludicrous to me even though they're often talked about in that context. I purposely left out guys that probably 95% of posters would agree are HOF (Brock Purdy, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, etc).

Are these HOF? Why?
  • Matthew Stafford
  • Donovon McNabb (Go Eagles!)
  • Matt Hasselbeck
  • Michael Vick (Go Eagles!)
  • Carson Palmer
  • Daunte Culpepper
  • Eli Manning
  • Tony Romo
  • Philip Rivers
  • Ben Roethlisberger
  • Steve McNair
  • Rich Gannon
  • Drew Bledsoe
  • Matt Ryan
  • Jeff Garcia
  • Russell Wilson
Click to expand...
From that list, Eli Manning and Big Ben are the only surefire HOF players in my mind.

I can't get behind Stafford. His stat sheet is stuffed with years of 4th quarter, down by double digits, production. Yeah, he won one with LA, but was he really the orchestrator? Just the fact that that question exists, keeps him out, as far as I'm concerned.

McNabb had some very good years. He also fell off of a cliff. I don't know that he did enough.

Hasselbeck- meh. Nothing pops out about him. Same with Palmer, Culpeper, Bledsoe, Romo and Garcia.

Vick was one of a kind. And his renaissance with Philly is impressive, but I'm not sure it all adds up to HOF.

Rivers was above average for a long time, but is that enough?

McNair, Gannon, and Ryan all made super bowls, if I recall correctly, and I think all were MVPs, but never won a championship. They're close to HOF.

Wilson would have been a for sure, for me, prior to this season. I still probably lean yes, but it's less certain
 
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Does the HoF care about Big Ben's off the field criminal accusations and settlements?

Favre got in after his accusations but before all of this fraud stuff.
 
Jeremy said:
In pro sports, you hear all the time about "future Hall-Of-Famer" X. But what constitutes Hall-Of-Fame worthy in your mind?

Championships?
Personal Stats?
MVP Awards?
Longevity?
Click to expand...
All of that matters, but stats on more recent QBs have to looked at a little closer since they have been trending way up lately. Rings are going to get outsized consideration, then awards, and longevity pulling up the rear
  • Matthew Stafford - No
  • Donovon McNabb (Go Eagles!) - No
  • Matt Hasselbeck - No
  • Michael Vick (Go Eagles!) - No
  • Carson Palmer - lol No
  • Daunte Culpepper - No
  • Eli Manning - Probably Yes, Decent stats. 2 Rings is hard to turn away
  • Tony Romo - No
  • Philip Rivers - Maybe. Lots of stats, minimal postseason success, long career. Basically Dan Fouts
  • Ben Roethlisberger - Yes. Same case as Eli, but stronger stat case
  • Steve McNair - No, one split MVP but not sure he was even deserving
  • Rich Gannon - No
  • Drew Bledsoe - No
  • Matt Ryan - Maybe. Being an MVP helps
  • Jeff Garcia - No
  • Russell Wilson - Probably, unless he completely implodes
 
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isufbcurt said:
For me it's individual performance.

Championships are won by the team.
Click to expand...
100%. I get so tired of the QB being judged primarily by championships. If it's multiple championships and a guy balls out like Eli and obviously Brady, then I think it's definitely a huge factor. Big Ben is a good example. He was absolutely awful in the win in his first SB and was OK in the others. But he "wins." You could've put every other QB on NFL rosters that year in his place that first win and they would've played better. He was horrible.

As an extreme example, Joe Burrow and Kirk Cousins' stats in playoff starts are shockingly similar. Comp %, yards per game TD/game, Int/game, it's amazing how close they are.

I think it's fair to consider Burrow a gamer. I really like him and think he's awesome. I think it's fair to criticize Cousins as coming up short in big games. But it's really overblown for something neither has anything to do with.

In Burrow's playoff games, his defense is giving up just over 17 ppg, scored a defensive TD, and is generating 2 TOs/game. Burrow is awesome, but most starting QBs in the league are going to win if their defense is doing that.

In Cousins' playoff starts his defense has given up over 28 ppg, created 1 TO/game and has not scored any defensive TDs. I don't think much of Cousins, but only the elite QBs are going to win a majority of their playoff games when their defense is doing that.

Championships matter, and the QB is the most important position on the team. But we've gotten to the point where football fandom is so dumbed down that we can't see the obvious that sometimes great QBs never win a title, sometimes bad QBs have a good run and win, and sometimes mediocre QBs get carried to a title.
 
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I typically look at All-Pro selections. for players as a good place to start if they are HoF worthy. Not that you have to be one, and QB is really hard because there is only one per year. But at the same time if you are getting into the HoF you need to have been outstanding at your position for more than just a year or two. Being an All-Pro indicates that at least one year you were the best at your position. Then you have to look at longevity of career, did they make their teammates better all that individual stuff. Ultimately the HoF should be the best players of their generations. When you look at this list and compare it to Peyton and Brady none of these guys stack up.

Gannon and Ryan are the only All-Pro QBs. To me Gannon didn't have enough years of greatness. Ryan would probably get a vote from me. And the only other guy would be Ben, he played a really high level for a long time. The rest all had good 5 or so years, were avg the rest of their careers. I suppose you can make an argument for Eli, because if he wasn't the Giants QB they wouldn't have won those two SBs. He always seemed to play well in big games, but you can never say he was the best QB at any time in his career. Also, if his last name wasn't Manning would we even consider him? His numbers are better than Romo, McNabb or any of the other guys on this list.

  • Matthew Stafford
  • Donovon McNabb (Go Eagles!)
  • Matt Hasselbeck -
  • Michael Vick (Go Eagles!)
  • Carson Palmer
  • Daunte Culpepper
  • Eli Manning
  • Tony Romo
  • Philip Rivers
  • Ben Roethlisberger
  • Steve McNair
  • Rich Gannon - 2 Time All-Pro
  • Drew Bledsoe
  • Matt Ryan - 1 Time All-Pro
  • Jeff Garcia
  • Russell Wilson
 
The one that caught my eye recently was Scott Rolen. Had to go back and look at his stuff because my first thought was to question it. Baseball is different to me, they let anyone in the HOF.
 
cyclone13 said:
My worry with HoF is HoF became the Hall of the Very Good.
Click to expand...
Some argue it's always been that way, depending on the sport. I'm willing to bet if you went back and reevaluated even the "legendary" players from before, you'd find not all of them truly belong.
 
houjix said:
Some argue it's always been that way, depending on the sport. I'm willing to bet if you went back and reevaluated even the "legendary" players from before, you'd find not all of them truly belong.
Click to expand...
Good point. Go back and look at Troy Aikman's career. Played 12 seasons. Never hit 3500 yards passing once. Only hit 3000 yards 5 times. Average passing TDs per season is less than 14, and only threw for over 20 once. Double digit interceptions in 8 of 12 seasons.

By today's standards, those numbers would have your team looking for another quarterback.

But he played for the Dallas dynasty, when they had more talent than anyone, and he had post season success, so he's a first ballot HOFer
 
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Mr Janny said:
Good point. Go back and look at Troy Aikman's career. Played 12 seasons. Never hit 3500 yards passing once. Only hit 3000 yards 5 times. Average passing TDs per season is less than 14, and only threw for over 20 once. Double digit interceptions in 8 of 12 seasons.

By today's standards, those numbers would have your team looking for another quarterback.
Click to expand...

In an era where you could destroy the QB and mug every receiver. And, his #1 RB ate up 16,000 yards on the ground in 11 seasons together. Nobody is running for that type of yardage now.

That's the problem with just comparing numbers across eras as the game changes.
 
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