Zion Griffin Transferring

[Statefan10]

They like to say he got lucky never mind the fact that Tyrese wasn't projected as high as he is now beginning the year, but then people like to say Bruce Weber is why Tyrese got better.

Bruce might've helped a bit with exposure but Prohm was the one who found Tyrese, recruited him, started him as a freshman last year, and he ended up making the USA team because of that.

Prohm gave Tyrese an opportunity that not other colleges were doing, Tyrese took advantage of that and put a ton of time in. Both deserve credit.

 

[Statefan10]

Ha. Touche. But, isn't that how a message board works...? I was speaking re: Zion. Overall, it seems like it has to be the case that guys aren't getting in the gym like in the past - Monte, Naz, Matt, etc. Or, if they are, then they were highly overrated by the recruiting services and the coaches.

Georges and Naz learned the work ethic from guys like Ejim, Chris Babb, Lucious, etc. Monte and Matt learned their work ethic from Georges, Naz, Kane, Ejim. Our problem has been these past few years, we've had limited guys with a full 4 years under Prohm and there hasn't been a true culture built yet. And that's what brings us to what a lot of us have talked about regarding the importance of having 4 year guys. Next year, Solomon and Conditt need to get their butts into the gym and show the newcomers the ropes. Grill and Jackson need to also provide guidance.

 

[bozclone]

I had high hopes for Zion, because I liked his effort and athleticism. I hoped he could be a solid stretch 4. Problem is he was not a consistent 3 pt shooter, had no ball handling skills, and had no clue on defense. We have two freshmen coming in that are likely already better at these things. Plus we have Johnson. It was going to be hard for him to earn minutes without major improvements in his skill level.

 

[bosco]

I had high hopes for Zion, because I liked his effort and athleticism. I hoped he could be a solid stretch 4. Problem is he was not a consistent 3 pt shooter, had no ball handling skills, and had no clue on defense. We have two freshmen coming in that are likely already better at these things. Plus we have Johnson. It was going to be hard for him to earn minutes without major improvements in his skill level.

Is Johnson a 4? I thought he was more of a 3 or 2. Problem is if we don't get older at the 4 we will have 2 freshman there next year.

 

[CyclonesMoney]

CycloneMoney started drinking early today

Yeah and I can’t go to a strip club because everything is closing.

 

[t-noah]

Wasn't there a story where they taped Hornacek"s left hand up so he wouldn't use it so much? I think my father told me that story when I had similar issues and he did the same thing for me.

Did it work?

 

[Cycl1]

They like to say he got lucky never mind the fact that Tyrese wasn't projected as high as he is now beginning the year, but then people like to say Bruce Weber is why Tyrese got better.

Nah man, I was just pointing out that prohm can't get all the credit for Tyrese. Look at this thread. If prohm can't be blamed for Zion and Lewis, then he certainly can't get all the credit for Tyrese development when he wasn't even his only coach.

 

[isucy86]

I mean did Nixon play like he deserved to get all of those mins

IMO not an accurate comparison. One was a guard and one was a forward. ISU could afford to give Nixon minutes at guard based on his defense, because his offense was still more consistent than Jackson or Grill. And his defense was far superior to Lewis.

Conversely, if one would rank Griffin, Solo, Jacobson and Conditt on offense- Griffin would be 4th. Same on defense- I'd rate him 4th. Hence, he got minimum minutes.

The reality is, if ISU is going to be an NCAA Tournament team in 2020/21 we need a big influx of new blood and its tough to create the needed work ethic & culture with freshman. IMO we need to bring in 3 JUCO/Grad Transfers this spring (assuming Halliburton goes to NBA).

Griffin transferring is unfortunate, but necessary.

The next guy I would look to potentially transfer is Lewis. Lewis has to know where he stacks up vs. Johnson. If Lewis views he is behind Johnson at SF, he is gone (unless PT isn't important). Lewis isn't good enough on D to defend a guard. And not sure he can defend the 4 either.

 

[clonehoodie]

We weren't going to win a national championship with Zion, then he had to go. Just like anyone else that isn't good enough to get us there.

 

[SpokaneCY]

Yeah and I can’t go to a strip club because everything is closing.

You'd probably catch something anyway. You can explain coronavirus but the herpes is a tougher sell to the missus.

 

[BWRhasnoAC]

Nah man, I was just pointing out that prohm can't get all the credit for Tyrese. Look at this thread. If prohm can't be blamed for Zion and Lewis, then he certainly can't get all the credit for Tyrese development when he wasn't even his only coach.

Cool

 

[bozclone]

Is Johnson a 4? I thought he was more of a 3 or 2. Problem is if we don't get older at the 4 we will have 2 freshman there next year.

Johnson is 6’6” like Griffin. He is not a traditional power foreword type 4, but he has the length to play the 4 in a 4 guard lineup. He gives us flexibility/mismatches that Griffin did not. Griffin is an undersized 4 with no guard skills. Hopefully the two freshmen are so good that Johnson doesn’t play much of the 4, but at least he is an option. It is possible we may add an older guy too.

 

[ClonesFTW]

Only disagree with Nixon. I actually was always mystified by how bad a shot-maker he was because I thought his shot was pretty good. Got off his feet, hands high, followed through, then missed

Exactly. I remember one of my first posts about him after seeing his highlight film was that his 3 pt % will improve here based on his form. Welp...

 

[Statefan10]

Did it work?

I'd say so lol

 

[Statefan10]

Nah man, I was just pointing out that prohm can't get all the credit for Tyrese. Look at this thread. If prohm can't be blamed for Zion and Lewis, then he certainly can't get all the credit for Tyrese development when he wasn't even his only coach.

I don't think anyone is giving Prohm full credit for Tyrese's success and progress, because that's not fair to Tyrese. Prohm gave Tyrese the exact same opportunities as everyone else on the team. Tyrese has succeeded for a variety of reasons, whether that be God given ability, timing, effort put in the gym after practice and in the off-season, etc.

Just because you give all those opportunities, it doesn't mean everyone's going to progress to the same level or at the same time. Everyone is different. Someone could do the exact same thing as Tyrese but show no signs of progression whatsoever, and frankly that happens to SO many college players. Lots of them never get better, or even if they do, it's not drastic and it's not able to seen out on the floor during a game. And sometimes even when a player looks to have progressed, it can take a bad practice or a bad game for those guys to revert back to their ways, sort of like Conditt did this year.

Prohm is the head coach, so he should take the blame for a variety of things, even if those things seem out of his control. If Zion and Lewis couldn't figure it out and progress either skill wise or mentally, then it's on Prohm for recruiting them, but you can't predict the future. Guys don't progress all the time. This happens everywhere. Every single player on the team is not going to end up being able to play significant minutes. Zion and Lewis are being brought to light because we needed them this year to have been a good team but they weren't. Anderson and Leech's open spots hurt this team incredibly. If those could've been used on capable freshman, grad transfers, or JUCO guys, we likely wouldn't have been this bad. Those spots being opened however gave Prohm the opportunity to offer pretty good recruits for next year.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Two years ago we were all thinking the Chicago four were going to lead us to great heights. Only one is going to be on the roster next year...

One is going to be a lottery pick.

Another got drafted as a huge upside play by LA.

Another is still a legit NBA prospect.

The last one was a bust.

That is still objectively a very good recruiting class.

 

[Statefan10]

One is going to be a lottery pick.

Another got drafted as a huge upside play by LA.

Another is still a legit NBA prospect.

The last one was a bust.

That is still objectively a very good recruiting class.

And here come the people who will say "well how many tournament wins do we have with those guys?". Well the irony of all of this will be that George Conditt is probably going to end up with more tournament wins than THT and Tyrese combined. That's how it goes sometimes.

 

[WhoISthis]

IMO not an accurate comparison. One was a guard and one was a forward. ISU could afford to give Nixon minutes at guard based on his defense, because his offense was still more consistent than Jackson or Grill. And his defense was far superior to Lewis.

Conversely, if one would rank Griffin, Solo, Jacobson and Conditt on offense- Griffin would be 4th. Same on defense- I'd rate him 4th. Hence, he got minimum minutes.

The reality is, if ISU is going to be an NCAA Tournament team in 2020/21 we need a big influx of new blood and its tough to create the needed work ethic & culture with freshman. IMO we need to bring in 3 JUCO/Grad Transfers this spring (assuming Halliburton goes to NBA).

Griffin transferring is unfortunate, but necessary

Well said my friend!

Boy, creating the needed culture and ethic in Year 6 is real tough. With a young roster, too! But absolutely the biggest need.

Hard to do in one offseason, and like you said it requires large roster turnover. Easier to recruit in the needed culture than change guys.

We probably need Bolton for his talent alone, everyone else needs to have the right cultural mindset. Luckily, our second best talent, Young, is a great culture guy.

Prohm himself may need to change, or get a staff member that brings to the culture what he lacks.

 

[Sigmapolis]

And here come the people who will say "well how many tournament wins do we have with those guys?". Well the irony of all of this will be that George Conditt is probably going to end up with more tournament wins than THT and Tyrese combined. That's how it goes sometimes.

Plenty to be critical of with Prohm right now, but sometimes I don't get it.

There is a class where we have 2/4 and probably 3/4 guys ending up in the NBA.

Yet he "doesn't bring in enough talent."

Heck, a lot of his problem with that class is he brought in too much and the best two of them developed way quicker than we thought they would.

 

[BringBackJohnny]

This and to put players in a position to best utilize their strengths. I think this is Prohm's greatest weakness. He is a system coach all the way. This was my takeaway from Chris Williams podcast also. If a guy doesn't fit his system they struggle. I see it with Conditt also as well as Jacobson this year. I think it was the same with McDermott. If they can get four year system guys they can succeed. But that doesn't seem to work well with the athletes you need to compete in the Big 12.

like that dang Wesley Johnson not posting up enough for McD. How dare he shoot and make 3 pointers when McD says post up.

System coaches must be able to adapt or be able to keep players long enough to learn and grow into the system. We arn’t seeing either in Ames right now.