.

[ISUChippewa]

This is simply a difference of opinion on how a fan views success on non-conference, conf. season, Big 12 Tourney and NCAA. There are so many upsets in the tournament that I am not going to base the success of a season on a single game. I didn't do for Johnny, Tim, Larry, Wayne, McDermott or Fred. And I sure as hell didn't do it with Prohm when I said prior to WVU road game that 16-17 was a success no matter how the post-season (Big 12 & NCAA) plays out.

I'm not crapping on Prohm for winning the two games in the NCAA but context matters as well. If I had told you that we have a neutral floor game versus Iona & UALR how many of us would have said we need to win both games or I will be extremely disappointed? I would venture to guess that 95% of the fanbase would have expected two wins.

Compare that to 2013-14 when the team beats North Carolina to get to the Sweet 16 after the Niang injury. Not many of us expected that win. Both teams were expected by seed to get to the Sweet 16 but they felt like different accomplishments.

I hope Steve wins every game from Wednesday to eternity but it will not change my opinion about 15-16. I know it is an opinion that people dislike. It is what it is.

I can respect this, I actually can, and I think you present your argument well, truly.

For me personally (and this is just me), any single time we make the Sweet 16 is a great season, and context really isn't all that important to me in the moment. The Sweet 16 is the Sweet 16, and how we get there and who we beat to get there becomes secondary to me behind the simple fact that we are one of the final 16 teams in the entire country (out of 350) to still be playing for a national championship.

The reason I've been pretty fired up in this thread is because I feel it's total BS to "cherry pick" who we've beaten in a single-game elimination tournament as a form of criticism against a coaching staff that some people decided not to like and not give a fair shot to from the very start. It's unfair, invalid, unjustified and is really nothing more than a cheap potshot.

2013 and the start of 2014 was a tough year for me personally, so I'm totally comfortable sharing on here that I literally cried tears of joy once the final buzzer sounded against UNC in that game. I also saw the win over Little Rock in person and Denver and cried tears of joy over that as well. Didn't matter to me who we beat; my feelings of joy and elation were pretty much the same.

 

[rochclone]

I can respect this, I actually can, and I think you present your argument well, truly.

For me personally (and this is just me), any single time we make the Sweet 16 is a great season, and context really isn't all that important to me in the moment. The Sweet 16 is the Sweet 16, and how we get there and who we beat to get there becomes secondary to me behind the simple fact that we are one of the final 16 teams in the entire country (out of 350) to still be playing for a national championship.

The reason I've been pretty fired up in this thread is because I feel it's total BS to "cherry pick" who we've beaten in a single-game elimination tournament as a form of criticism against a coaching staff that some people decided not to like and not give a fair shot to from the very start. It's unfair, invalid, unjustified and is really nothing more than a cheap potshot.

2013 and the start of 2014 was a tough year for me personally, so I'm totally comfortable sharing on here that I literally cried tears of joy once the final buzzer sounded against UNC in that game. I also saw the win over Little Rock in person and Denver and cried tears of joy over that as well. Didn't matter to me who we beat; my feelings of joy and elation were pretty much the same.

No worries ISUChip I understand and respect your position.

 

[Gunnerclone]

Is this like a collaboration thread with a Hok site? Pathetic showing Cyclone “fans”.

 

[Cat Stevens]

I wasn't anti-Prohm in the beginning and I'm not anti-Prohm now. I think people have a right to frustrated and voice concerns; even if they are premature. CSP may be the best head coach for ISU which takes a lot of things into consideration (health, recruiting, aspirations, in-game coaching, etc) But can we all just say that Fred was as damn close to an offensive genius as we will ever have at Iowa State. I'm sure it had as much to do with Charlie Henry as it did with Fred. But that staff was brilliant and the X's and O's were the strength.

I just wish we had more of that with the new staff but clearly Prohm loves Iowa State and hopefully he will grow from an in-game coaching standpoint.

Fred’s Iowa state legacy is cemented. There is no reason to tear down prohm simply because he’s not Fred.

There were a lot of clunkers over Fred’s 5 years too.

Prohm will win, or he won’t, but he gets the chance to fail before declaring him a failure

 

[BryceC]

So 15-6 (2014-15) between regular season/post season Big 12 is somehow worse than 10-9 (2015-16) because a team played poorly for a single day.

Yes.

To me, this is the equivalent of saying, well I was a great husband 364 days of the year, but that one day I had sex with another woman. Look at the big picture honey.

That one day is pretty dang important.

 

[WastedTalent]

And Norfolk State. Who does that back to back?

?

 

[BryceC]

I wasn't anti-Prohm in the beginning and I'm not anti-Prohm now. I think people have a right to frustrated and voice concerns; even if they are premature. CSP may be the best head coach for ISU which takes a lot of things into consideration (health, recruiting, aspirations, in-game coaching, etc) But can we all just say that Fred was as damn close to an offensive genius as we will ever have at Iowa State. I'm sure it had as much to do with Charlie Henry as it did with Fred. But that staff was brilliant and the X's and O's were the strength.

I just wish we had more of that with the new staff but clearly Prohm loves Iowa State and hopefully he will grow from an in-game coaching standpoint.

I agree with you 100%. I've been a pretty dang vocal critic of Prohm on here many times. Last year after the win at KU and the incredible turnaround from there on I said I'd shut up for the most part and let him play it out. Even his most ardent supporters have to at least be concerned about what we are seeing this year. This isn't even a Fred v. Prohm thing for me, it's the characterization of a Sweet 16 team as a disappointment that I find so galling. We've done it 5 times in the history of the program!

For the record I'd take the Prohm Sweet 16 year over the 2001 Hampton loss year, and that year included a conference championship. That's how important the NCAA's are to me anyway.

 

[Cat Stevens]

?

They meant Missouri.

 

[NoCreativity]

My main 2 beefs with Prohm is the 15-16 season and his lack of landing transfers.

I felt we had the talent that year to win the Big 12 and go deep into the tourney, felt like we had an Elite 8 type of team.

When he took the job I remember him saying how he wanted to continue the transfer thing where Fred left off. He's done nothing of the sort in almost 3 years.

I realize it's a different landscape now but with all the playing time we had available this year you mean to tell me he couldn't land one?

I remember specifically posters on here arguing which 4 out of the Top 5 transfers we were getting, then quickly one by one they had no interest in coming here.

Another thing is Prohm needs to look into the Indian Hills pipeline, they usually field an entire team of division 1 players but yet I never hear of him recruting down there.

 

[CyTwins]

My main 2 beefs with Prohm is the 15-16 season and his lack of landing transfers.

I felt we had the talent that year to win the Big 12 and go deep into the tourney, felt like we had an Elite 8 type of team.

When he took the job I remember him saying how he wanted to continue the transfer thing where Fred left off. He's done nothing of the sort in almost 3 years.

I realize it's a different landscape now but with all the playing time we had available this year you mean to tell me he couldn't land one?

I remember specifically posters on here arguing which 4 out of the Top 5 transfers we were getting, then quickly one by one they had no interest in coming here.

Another thing is Prohm needs to look into the Indian Hills pipeline, they usually field an entire team of division 1 players but yet I never hear of him recruting down there.

You mean the season where we finished #15 in the final poll, something Fred only did better than once (#11 in 2013-14)?

 

[CycloneErik]

?

Crossed up Mizzou's loss with Duke's loss to Lehigh.

 

[CyJeans]

 

[Cat Stevens]

I agree with you 100%. I've been a pretty dang vocal critic of Prohm on here many times. Last year after the win at KU and the incredible turnaround from there on I said I'd shut up for the most part and let him play it out. Even his most ardent supporters have to at least be concerned about what we are seeing this year. This isn't even a Fred v. Prohm thing for me, it's the characterization of a Sweet 16 team as a disappointment that I find so galling. We've done it 5 times in the history of the program!

For the record I'd take the Prohm Sweet 16 year over the 2001 Hampton loss year, and that year included a conference championship. That's how important the NCAA's are to me anyway.

There isn’t a way to answer about concerns.

All coaches deserve time to get their players. If we are having this same conversation in two years, then it will be a sign that he isn’t the right guy for the job.

The part that is most ridiculous is that all of these are the same people that bitched last year before the Kansas game, and then disappeared right after. If it wasn’t about more than who it is and defending legacies, they would have been here enjoying the run.

Christ there are still people obsessed with defending McCarneys legacy It’s a bad look.

 

[ISUChippewa]

My main 2 beefs with Prohm is the 15-16 season and his lack of landing transfers.

I felt we had the talent that year to win the Big 12 and go deep into the tourney, felt like we had an Elite 8 type of team.

When he took the job I remember him saying how he wanted to continue the transfer thing where Fred left off. He's done nothing of the sort in almost 3 years.

I realize it's a different landscape now but with all the playing time we had available this year you mean to tell me he couldn't land one?

I remember specifically posters on here arguing which 4 out of the Top 5 transfers we were getting, then quickly one by one they had no interest in coming here.

Another thing is Prohm needs to look into the Indian Hills pipeline, they usually field an entire team of division 1 players but yet I never hear of him recruting down there.

So...do you honestly feel that minus Naz we still had an Elite 8 level team that season? And that being in the Sweet 16 is not a "deep" run?

You're allowed to set your own level of personal expectations for ISU basketball, but if you are going to be as demanding as what you've openly stated, you're going to come away more disappointed than not.

I can actually agree with you a bit on the transfer criticism. It's a different game than what it was even just a couple of years ago. Bowie and Holden may not have been the kind of high-impact transfers that Kane and Royce were, but they still gave us some solid minutes. Bowie in particular played really well in the Big 12 tournament final against WVU and in the NCAA tournament game against Nevada. Are you going to give Prohm any credit for bringing in a talented role player that saved his best for last?

 

[WastedTalent]

Crossed up Mizzou's loss with Duke's loss to Lehigh.

Gotcha.
Duke lost to Lehigh in 2012, then lost to Mercer in 2014, BUT they won the National Championship in 2015. So I guess Prohm did underachieve, by not winning it all after the UAB loss.

 

[NoCreativity]

So...do you honestly feel that minus Naz we still had an Elite 8 level team that season? And that being in the Sweet 16 is not a "deep" run?

You're allowed to set your own level of personal expectations for ISU basketball, but if you are going to be as demanding as what you've openly stated, you're going to come away more disappointed than not.

I can actually agree with you a bit on the transfer criticism. It's a different game than what it was even just a couple of years ago. Bowie and Holden may not have been the kind of high-impact transfers that Kane and Royce were, but they still gave us some solid minutes. Bowie in particular played really well in the Big 12 tournament final against WVU and in the NCAA tournament game against Nevada. Are you going to give Prohm any credit for bringing in a talented role player that saved his best for last?

Bowie was a nice complimentary player off the bench, that's about it.

 

[NoCreativity]

Bowie was a nice complimentary player off the bench, that's about it.

And yes I do feel we had Elite 8 talent even without Naz, like I said, he was probably the 6th or 7th best player on that team if you want to rank them by talent level.

 

[ISUChippewa]

Bowie was a nice complimentary player off the bench, that's about it.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Every single successful team needs "nice, complimentary" players off the bench.

What were your expectations of Bowie going into last season?

 

[fsanford]

My main 2 beefs with Prohm is the 15-16 season and his lack of landing transfers.

I felt we had the talent that year to win the Big 12 and go deep into the tourney, felt like we had an Elite 8 type of team.

When he took the job I remember him saying how he wanted to continue the transfer thing where Fred left off. He's done nothing of the sort in almost 3 years.

I realize it's a different landscape now but with all the playing time we had available this year you mean to tell me he couldn't land one?

I remember specifically posters on here arguing which 4 out of the Top 5 transfers we were getting, then quickly one by one they had no interest in coming here.

Another thing is Prohm needs to look into the Indian Hills pipeline, they usually field an entire team of division 1 players but yet I never hear of him recruting down there.

Aren't that they are looking to the rule of grad transfers have to be given 2 year rides, and applying other requirements. Kind of kills the market for them. Probably good to get out of tha

Fred lost a stud to UNLV , Prohm lost what could have been a difference make at forward to UNLV.
It happens.

For good or bad, Prohm seems to be focusing on high school kids, giving a lot of floor time to 2 freshman. A top 20 class coming in. I think that is much more sustainable looking that the landscape future of college hoops. You take a sit out transfer. Maybe a JC if you miss on 4 star kid out of high school.

Now if these kids don't improve each year they are with the program, Prohm will not be around long.

 

[ISUChippewa]

And yes I do feel we had Elite 8 talent even without Naz, like I said, he was probably the 6th or 7th best player on that team if you want to rank them by talent level.

I disagree with you.

I think you can make an argument that Naz was more talented than McKay, specifically his mental toughness and leadership, if you want to throw those in as part of as assessment. I would put his physical talent on the same level as Matt Thomas. I would say he was clearly behind Georges, Monte, Abdul, and maybe even Deonte in the pecking order.

Beyond those guys, whatever argument you want to make in terms of talent, we clearly did not have the necessary depth that Final Four type teams usually have. That's on CFH.