Teams
Forum List
Toggle sidebar

MLB: Ridiculous Problems in baseball dealing with the Red Sox and Cubs (as I see it)

G4Clones

G4Clones

Member
Jul 14, 2008
30
1
8
I was reading another thread that talked about reasons to root for a particular baseball team in major league baseball. The thread eventually lead to a post by a Red Sox fan. In his response, he was claiming that the Red Sox are different from the Yankees and other big market teams because they "draft" and "develop" their players while the Yankees don't draft as well but wait around for other smaller market teams to develop the players for them. After the player has reached their prime, the Yankees simply buy them and put together a mini-all-star team. But the Red Sox fan implied they are similar to a small market team and not the Yankees because they draft and develop and do not simply buy their way to the top.

This response from a Red Sox fan is a huge crock of **** in my opinion. Yeah they evaluated and selected the right talent in the draft and then developed them into good players. I get that part. But remember, the Twins have had the same level of success (if not better) in evaluating and developing talent than the Red Sox. The part where teams like the Red Sox and teams like the Twins separate is with their respected payroll levels. The Red Sox have a ridiculous amount of money to spend to keep these players around for seemingly as long as they would like. Meanwhile, the Twins do not have that luxury and therefore must select one or maybe two (at the most) elite players they developed through their farm system and turn around and build there team around the two players they have labeled "the nucleus". The Twins do not have enough money to keep all the great players they have developed. Chew on this...what if the Twins had Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, Micheal Cuddyer, Denard Span, Torii Hunter, Jason Kubel, Jason Bartlett, Johan Santana, Frankie Liriano, Matt Garza (yes he was a cancer but was really good) and all the other bullpen talent they have lost over the years. Looks like a loaded team to me. This is the exact same thing that the Red Sox are doing right now. They can afford to pay and keep all there great home grown talent around for many years...and win Championships. While Twins fans are left wondering what could have been.

As for the Cubs. I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read a post by a Cubs fan in the other MLB thread when they brought up the general popularity of the Cubs. He couldn't understand why so many other fan bases (Twins for example) do not like the Cubs and choose to root against them in many cases. There are so many Cubs fans out there that say "Why do you cheer against the Cubbies? THEY ARE THE LOVABLE-DOVABLE CUBBIES! They never win the World Series or compete against your team. They haven't won since before Teddy Roosevelt"..blah blah blah blah. I tell you what. I am one of those Twins fans that cannot STAND the Cubs or the majority of their fans for that matter. For one, they are a Chicago team. Being a Minnesota sports fan that doesn't help my impression of them. But the biggest thing for me is they claim to be the best and most loyal fanbase in the world of sports. Loyal yes. Best no. I will never consider a fanbase the "best" in sports when they blame all their postseason woes on EVERYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THE CUBS TEAM ITSELF. This is the same "best" fanbase that for all practical purposes, ended a mans life because they wanted to blame something rather than giving credit to the Marlins (who was the better team) or blaming the many mistakes by the bullpen, the offense, and the starting pitching. Remember people, the Cubs were winning by a significant margin right after that "event" happened. It was GAME 6. They had another game after that with their ace on the mound at home in Game 7. Face it. It was a combination between the Marlins being tougher and the Cubs choking. It was not because of one man who was sitting in the front row bleachers. Bartman was doing what any other fan in their right mind would have done in the same situation (Big playoff game...sitting right next to the field...foul ball is coming my way...I want that souvenir). But no, we will blame it on him. People, the man is currently barricaded in his house and has to use the Witness Protection Program to change his name 3 times a year so some stupid fan of the "best fanbase in the world" doesn't try to run him over with their '96 F150. Basically, I wanted to say that I think the Cubs fanbase's perception of itself is a complete joke..Get over yourselves, there is no supernatural being that is punishing this one team...HERES TO ANOTHER 100 YEARS OF MISERY.

I will end this by saying the Twins will be a force the Yankees will have to deal with come playoff time.


OH yeah...Go Cyclones
 
G4Clones said:
I was reading another thread that talked about reasons to root for a particular baseball team in major league baseball. The thread eventually lead to a post by a Red Sox fan. In his response, he was claiming that the Red Sox are different from the Yankees and other big market teams because they "draft" and "develop" their players while the Yankees don't draft as well but wait around for other smaller market teams to develop the players for them. After the player has reached their prime, the Yankees simply buy them and put together a mini-all-star team. But the Red Sox fan implied they are similar to a small market team and not the Yankees because they draft and develop and do not simply buy their way to the top.

This response from a Red Sox fan is a huge crock of **** in my opinion. Yeah they evaluated and selected the right talent in the draft and then developed them into good players. I get that part. But remember, the Twins have had the same level of success (if not better) in evaluating and developing talent than the Red Sox. The part where teams like the Red Sox and teams like the Twins separate is with their respected payroll levels. The Red Sox have a ridiculous amount of money to spend to keep these players around for seemingly as long as they would like. Meanwhile, the Twins do not have that luxury and therefore must select one or maybe two (at the most) elite players they developed through their farm system and turn around and build there team around the two players they have labeled "the nucleus". The Twins do not have enough money to keep all the great players they have developed. Chew on this...what if the Twins had Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, Micheal Cuddyer, Denard Span, Torii Hunter, Jason Kubel, Jason Bartlett, Johan Santana, Frankie Liriano, Matt Garza (yes he was a cancer but was really good) and all the other bullpen talent they have lost over the years. Looks like a loaded team to me. This is the exact same thing that the Red Sox are doing right now. They can afford to pay and keep all there great home grown talent around for many years...and win Championships. While Twins fans are left wondering what could have been.

As for the Cubs. I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read a post by a Cubs fan in the other MLB thread when they brought up the general popularity of the Cubs. He couldn't understand why so many other fan bases (Twins for example) do not like the Cubs and choose to root against them in many cases. There are so many Cubs fans out there that say "Why do you cheer against the Cubbies? THEY ARE THE LOVABLE-DOVABLE CUBBIES! They never win the World Series or compete against your team. They haven't won since before Teddy Roosevelt"..blah blah blah blah. I tell you what. I am one of those Twins fans that cannot STAND the Cubs or the majority of their fans for that matter. For one, they are a Chicago team. Being a Minnesota sports fan that doesn't help my impression of them. But the biggest thing for me is they claim to be the best and most loyal fanbase in the world of sports. Loyal yes. Best no. I will never consider a fanbase the "best" in sports when they blame all their postseason woes on EVERYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THE CUBS TEAM ITSELF. This is the same "best" fanbase that for all practical purposes, ended a mans life because they wanted to blame something rather than giving credit to the Marlins (who was the better team) or blaming the many mistakes by the bullpen, the offense, and the starting pitching. Remember people, the Cubs were winning by a significant margin right after that "event" happened. It was GAME 6. They had another game after that with their ace on the mound at home in Game 7. Face it. It was a combination between the Marlins being tougher and the Cubs choking. It was not because of one man who was sitting in the front row bleachers. Bartman was doing what any other fan in their right mind would have done in the same situation (Big playoff game...sitting right next to the field...foul ball is coming my way...I want that souvenir). But no, we will blame it on him. People, the man is currently barricaded in his house and has to use the Witness Protection Program to change his name 3 times a year so some stupid fan of the "best fanbase in the world" doesn't try to run him over with their '96 F150. Basically, I wanted to say that I think the Cubs fanbase's perception of itself is a complete joke..Get over yourselves, there is no supernatural being that is punishing this one team...HERES TO ANOTHER 100 YEARS OF MISERY.

I will end this by saying the Twins will be a force the Yankees will have to deal with come playoff time.


OH yeah...Go Cyclones
Click to expand...

would you like the number for a good therapist?
 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7w64fbqYQY]YouTube - Everyone Is Now Dumber - Billy Madison[/ame]
 
everyyard said:
would you like the number for a good therapist?
Click to expand...

Why the hell would I need a therapist? Don't you go to a therapist to vent your problems? I think that I have already don't that to you guys.

I got a little advice for the other guy. If you think my post is too long....then don't read it...how hard is that? I don't post on here very much but I can guarantee that you have read posts longer than mine on other subjects (cough...mens basketball...cough)

Now that I have vented I will ask you all these questions

1. What do you think of fanbases like the Red Sox, Yankees and other larger market teams. Do you buy some of the arguments of the Red Sox nation that they do it the "small market" way and that they are different from the Yankees

2. As far as the Cubs fanbase...What do the fans of other teams think of the Cubs and their fans. I have already laid out what I think of them. What is your opinion of them?
 
midgetdancing2.gif
 
G4Clones said:
The thread eventually lead to a post by a Red Sox fan. In his response, he was claiming that the Red Sox are different from the Yankees and other big market teams because they "draft" and "develop" their players while the Yankees don't draft as well but wait around for other smaller market teams to develop the players for them.
Click to expand...

That's actually really funny...considering their two best starters (Lackey/Beckett) are purchases.

And of the 13 position players they have up right now 9 or 10 are buys...
C Victor Martinez, Indians
SS Scutaro, FA, not any good though
3B Beltre, FA
OF Cameron, FA
OF Drew FA,
DH Ortiz, FA
OF Hermida, Florida fire sale
3B Lowell, Florida FA
UTL, Hall, FA
C, Varitek...techincally brought up by Sox, but was actually a Twins draftee that they couldn't sign, so you could make the big $$$ argument here.

They do have a great player in Pedroia, and Ellsbury has potential, but the meat of their team was not drafted and developed. Not that I'm saying they shouldn't be able to get guys in free agency to fix problems...but lets just call it what it is. Yes the Yankees are worse, but the Red Sox aren't far behind in part of the problem.
 
FDWxMan said:
That's actually really funny...considering their two best starters (Lackey/Beckett) are purchases.

And of the 13 position players they have up right now 9 or 10 are buys...
C Victor Martinez, Indians
SS Scutaro, FA, not any good though
3B Beltre, FA
OF Cameron, FA
OF Drew FA,
DH Ortiz, FA
OF Hermida, Florida fire sale
3B Lowell, Florida FA
UTL, Hall, FA
C, Varitek...techincally brought up by Sox, but was actually a Twins draftee that they couldn't sign, so you could make the big $$$ argument here.

They do have a great player in Pedroia, and Ellsbury has potential, but the meat of their team was not drafted and developed. Not that I'm saying they shouldn't be able to get guys in free agency to fix problems...but lets just call it what it is. Yes the Yankees are worse, but the Red Sox aren't far behind in part of the problem.
Click to expand...


You have no idea what you are talking about so please refrain from posting any more BS before you do a little research. Ever heard of a shortstop named Hanley Ramirez? He was a product of the Red Sox farm system and was traded to Florida for both Mike Lowell and Josh Beckett. Florida got their franchise player and the Red Sox won the World Series 2 years later behind Beckett's solid post-season performances.

Red Sox complete deal for Beckett, Lowell - MLB - ESPN

I didn't see the thread the OP is talking about, but I would agree that the Red Sox are certainly NOT a "small market" team. There is no denying they have the 2nd highest payroll in baseball (4th highest in 2009). However, I'm guessing the point the person was trying to make is that the Red Sox have been more prudent than the Yankees with their money and prospects in the last decade, which led them to two WS titles and a solid core of young players locked up for the future (Pedroia/Youkilis/Lester/Beckett). Unlike the Yankees, the Red Sox have been very hesitant to sign older players (30+) to huge long-term contracts or to trade off their most talented prospects for mid-season pick-ups.

The Twins do a good job analyzing talent, but so do a lot of other "small-market" teams. The Marlins have won 2 WS titles since the expansion in 1993. The Twins haven't even won a pennant in that timeframe. The Marlins average payroll is $33.2 million over that time, the Twins average was $42.8. In 2010, the Twins payroll is nearly 100 million ($97.6) which is good enough for 10th in MLB, so forgive me if I'm not too sympathetic.
 
I don't respect any twins fans because they claim they are great fans but don't actually buy tickets to go to games. Every time they make the playoffs their are tickets available the day of the game. Pathetic.
 
RayShimley said:
You have no idea what you are talking about so please refrain from posting any more BS before you do a little research. Ever heard of a shortstop named Hanley Ramirez? He was a product of the Red Sox farm system and was traded to Florida for both Mike Lowell and Josh Beckett. Florida got their franchise player and the Red Sox won the World Series 2 years later behind Beckett's solid post-season performances.

Red Sox complete deal for Beckett, Lowell - MLB - ESPN

I didn't see the thread the OP is talking about, but I would agree that the Red Sox are certainly NOT a "small market" team. There is no denying they have the 2nd highest payroll in baseball (4th highest in 2009). However, I'm guessing the point the person was trying to make is that the Red Sox have been more prudent than the Yankees with their money and prospects in the last decade, which led them to two WS titles and a solid core of young players locked up for the future (Pedroia/Youkilis/Lester/Beckett). Unlike the Yankees, the Red Sox have been very hesitant to sign older players (30+) to huge long-term contracts or to trade off their most talented prospects for mid-season pick-ups.

The Twins do a good job analyzing talent, but so do a lot of other "small-market" teams. The Marlins have won 2 WS titles since the expansion in 1993. The Twins haven't even won a pennant in that timeframe. The Marlins average payroll is $33.2 million over that time, the Twins average was $42.8. In 2010, the Twins payroll is nearly 100 million ($97.6) which is good enough for 10th in MLB, so forgive me if I'm not too sympathetic.
Click to expand...

I am in no way a Yankee fan...can't stand them really...but look back at the rosters that won however many pennants in the 90's-00's.

Jeter
Posada
B Williams
Pettite
Mariano Ramirez
Cano - more recently

As far as I know, these are all guys developed within the Yankee system, aren't they?

That's more than the Red Sox have developed. Plus, they were kept through the duration, and not traded for known commodities (i.e. Beckett).
 
enisthemenace said:
I am in no way a Yankee fan...can't stand them really...but look back at the rosters that won however many pennants in the 90's-00's.

Jeter
Posada
B Williams
Pettite
Mariano Ramirez
Cano - more recently

As far as I know, these are all guys developed within the Yankee system, aren't they?

That's more than the Red Sox have developed. Plus, they were kept through the duration, and not traded for known commodities (i.e. Beckett).
Click to expand...

First off, no argument that the Yankees were not dominant in the 90's. It wasn't till after the 2000's where they started to pay the price for all the huge contracts they doled out (J. Giambi, G.Sheffield, J. Wright, K. Brown, C. Pavano, etc..)

I assume you meant Mariano Rivera, but yes those are all products of the yankees farm system. Also, Beckett wasn't traded for a "known quantity." Hanley Ramirez was one of the BoSox's top prospects, but he had never even played in a Major League game at the time he was traded.
 
FDWxMan said:
That's actually really funny...considering their two best starters (Lackey/Beckett) are purchases.

And of the 13 position players they have up right now 9 or 10 are buys...
C Victor Martinez, Indians
SS Scutaro, FA, not any good though
3B Beltre, FA
OF Cameron, FA
OF Drew FA,
DH Ortiz, FA
OF Hermida, Florida fire sale
3B Lowell, Florida FA
UTL, Hall, FA
C, Varitek...techincally brought up by Sox, but was actually a Twins draftee that they couldn't sign, so you could make the big $$$ argument here.

They do have a great player in Pedroia, and Ellsbury has potential, but the meat of their team was not drafted and developed. Not that I'm saying they shouldn't be able to get guys in free agency to fix problems...but lets just call it what it is. Yes the Yankees are worse, but the Red Sox aren't far behind in part of the problem.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure Varitek was a Seattle Mariner and traded to the BoSox for someone...
 
  • Like
Reactions: no2cyclones
RayShimley said:
First off, no argument that the Yankees were not dominant in the 90's. It wasn't till after the 2000's where they started to pay the price for all the huge contracts they doled out (J. Giambi, G.Sheffield, J. Wright, K. Brown, C. Pavano, etc..)

I assume you meant Mariano Rivera, but yes those are all products of the yankees farm system. Also, Beckett wasn't traded for a "known quantity." Hanley Ramirez was one of the BoSox's top prospects, but he had never even played in a Major League game at the time he was traded.
Click to expand...

Yeah...I meant Rivera, my fault.

No, Beckett wasn't traded for a known "commodity" (I said "commodity", not "quantity"). Hanley Ramirez was. That was the point I was trying to make.

The Yanks (again, I cannot stand them) came back to prominence by building their team through their own farm system. Not trading them away or purchasing a bunch of huge contracts. Eventually, as you point out, they did begin purchasing huge contracts, but kept the core players I put out there and built around them

When the Red Sox started becoming a dominant team, the players they built the majority of their success on were not their own (i.e. Ortiz, Manny, Varitek), which is the OP's argument.

My attempt at rebuttal was my original post.

Fact of the matter is, most teams these days pay to play, and that's the major problem with baseball. Teams like the Royals et. al. can't contend, because they can't afford to, and the Twins (sorry to the OP) are quickly becoming the "evil empire" you hate. It's just a matter of time before they are in the top 5 in payroll.
 
enisthemenace said:
Fact of the matter is, most teams these days pay to play, and that's the major problem with baseball. Teams like the Royals et. al. can't contend, because they can't afford to, and the Twins (sorry to the OP) are quickly becoming the "evil empire" you hate. It's just a matter of time before they are in the top 5 in payroll.
Click to expand...

I disagree with you on this. Granted, teams like the Royals will never be dominant year in and year out like the Yankees/Red Sox, but the reason bottom feeders like the Royals and Pirates haven't contended in over two decades is more because of inept management and poor talent evaluation.

For example, the Rays may very well have a more potent lineup then the Red Sox this year and their total 2010 payroll is only $500,000 above the Royals. Sure they probably won't be able to resign all their stars, but they have put themselves in a place that they will be able to contend the last 2 years and even made it to the World Series for the first time in franchise history.

Teams like the Royals that try and play "big-market" baseball (Jose Guillen for $12 million a year...??) with "small-market" money are destined to fail.
 
SC Cy said:
It's impossible to argue with fans of teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, etc. They just...don't...get it.
Click to expand...

Being a Cub fan, I find this troubling. I'm not sure you, as a Pirate fan, or anyone else who follows a so-called "small-market team" understand what happens behind management's closed doors.

There is far less transparency associated with a "small-market team" as opposed to the Cubs, Red Sox, Yankees, etc. It makes me wonder who the real "evil empires" are.

These teams turn major profits every year, and then find unique accounting tricks to show the team as less profitable. For example, when Selig ran the Brewers, he found that a large portion of profits were coming from paid parking. He set up a new company, gave it to his daughter, then leased the parking rights to her company for something like $1/year.

The Brewers then were able to take that money off their books, making them seem less "profitable" and possibly look like they were losing money, in order to cash a pretty hefty check from the "big boys" the following year due to profit sharing.

Guess what? ALL teams do this.

Anybody who thinks all these teams lose money needs to have their head's examined. If a team lost money, or even came close, we'd see multiple teams changing ownership every year, and we'd see WAY more ownership groups than we see today.

 
enisthemenace said:
Being a Cub fan, I find this troubling. I'm not sure you, as a Pirate fan, or anyone else who follows a so-called "small-market team" understand what happens behind management's closed doors.

There is far less transparency associated with a "small-market team" as opposed to the Cubs, Red Sox, Yankees, etc. It makes me wonder who the real "evil empires" are.

These teams turn major profits every year, and then find unique accounting tricks to show the team as less profitable. For example, when Selig ran the Brewers, he found that a large portion of profits were coming from paid parking. He set up a new company, gave it to his daughter, then leased the parking rights to her company for something like $1/year.

The Brewers then were able to take that money off their books, making them seem less "profitable" and possibly look like they were losing money, in order to cash a pretty hefty check from the "big boys" the following year due to profit sharing.

Guess what? ALL teams do this.

Anybody who thinks all these teams lose money needs to have their head's examined. If a team lost money, or even came close, we'd see multiple teams changing ownership every year, and we'd see WAY more ownership groups than we see today.
Click to expand...


Good post. Never heard that story about the Brewers, but it doesn't surprise me at all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Help Support Us

Become a patron
Top Bottom