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Iowa HS Boys State Sioux Center ruling?

D

dsreid

Member
Dec 7, 2007
120
21
18
NW Iowa
I just got done listening to the Sioux Center vs. Top-seeded MFL/Mar-Mac, and with 10 seconds left a kid fouls out, but no one tells him, and the score is 69-70, SC down by one. MFL player misses both free throws, however, the player who fouled out didn't leave the court so they T him up, game over.

Is this the correct ruling? I'm not sure if I have heard of this happening without an official saying something..
 
I believe it's the official scorer's responsibility to notify the floor officials of a player's 5th foul, although the team scorer should have notified their coach as well. I would think it's a neutral party keeping the official book for the state tournament unless they follow regular season rules in which the home book is the "official" book.

And doesn't the player have until the end of the free throws to sub? Or at least until the sub time between free throws?
 
dsreid said:
I just got done listening to the Sioux Center vs. Top-seeded MFL/Mar-Mac, and with 10 seconds left a kid fouls out, but no one tells him, and the score is 69-70, SC down by one. MFL player misses both free throws, however, the player who fouled out didn't leave the court so they T him up, game over.

Is this the correct ruling? I'm not sure if I have heard of this happening without an official saying something..
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I hope Sioux Center lost.
 
MFL was in the double bonus, so after the first missed free throw, he shot his second, SC rebounds, then the technical.
 
Certainly someone is required to inform the team that a player has been disqualified from the game, right? Maybe they were told but they spaced off and didn't substitute in time? I think you get 20 seconds or so to replace a player, in college atleast.
 
The official scorer should notify the calling official and then the player has to be replaced before any free throws are attempted (in 20 seconds like mentioned above...I believe college is 30).
 
IcSyU said:
The official scorer should notify the calling official and then the player has to be replaced before any free throws are attempted (in 20 seconds like mentioned above...I believe college is 30).
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Yes, I thought so too. Not one but BOTH free throws were attempted, and after the rebound they called the T... crazy stuff.
 
dsreid said:
Yes, I thought so too. Not one but BOTH free throws were attempted, and after the rebound they called the T... crazy stuff.
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I'm checking the rule book and case books I have right now (to confirm I have a clue what I'm talking about as well as see if the above situation is covered).
 
Someone should tweet @brentblum and see if he has an answer. I think I saw he's at state basketball (I don't use twitter to tweet..just read).
 
blum is working on it. Travis hines is on it too. sc did sub but the wrong kid came out. the kid that had fouled out wasn't told he fouled out by the refs.
 
clone2011 said:
I believe it's the official scorer's responsibility to notify the floor officials of a player's 5th foul, although the team scorer should have notified their coach as well. I would think it's a neutral party keeping the official book for the state tournament unless they follow regular season rules in which the home book is the "official" book.

And doesn't the player have until the end of the free throws to sub? Or at least until the sub time between free throws?
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No they have to sub immediately.

I would think if it was truly a scoring error that some leniency is in order. But if the bench and player were notified, once the ball becomes live again I assume he is participating illegally and there has to be a penalty. But again, I can't imagine penalizing the team for a scoring error if that's indeed what it turned out it was.
 
If it was truly a scoring error as opposed to the coach/player ignoring the disqualification there should have been no technical, which I think was already known by common sense but here it is in black & white:

Rule 2-11-11

2. The procedure if a player who has committed his/her fifth foul *continues to play because the scorer has failed to notify the official is as follows: As soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn should be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The disqualified player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such *player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is**** included among the duties of the officials.
 
The table notified the official.
The official notified the coach.

At that point, it's up to the coach to make sure the disqualified player is subbed out. Otherwise, once the ball is live, it's a technical foul.

The coach sent in multiple subs.
The disqualified player didn't come out.

MFL shot its free throws, and once the ball was live (on the missed second FT), play was stopped and the technical foul assessed.
 
theshadow said:
The table notified the official.
The official notified the coach.

At that point, it's up to the coach to make sure the disqualified player is subbed out. Otherwise, once the ball is live, it's a technical foul.

The coach sent in multiple subs.
The disqualified player didn't come out.

MFL shot its free throws, and once the ball was live (on the missed second FT), play was stopped and the technical foul assessed.
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Dead On. Crazy play, have never seen that happen before. Once you think you've seen everything, something like that happens. Feel bad for Sioux Center and the calling official (a friend of mine and a stellar ref.)
 
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brentblum said:
Dead On. Crazy play, have never seen that happen before. Once you think you've seen everything, something like that happens. Feel bad for Sioux Center and the calling official (a friend of mine and a stellar ref.)
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Wow. That is bananas. Definitely could not catch that from the radio feed lol
 
theshadow said:
The table notified the official.
The official notified the coach.

At that point, it's up to the coach to make sure the disqualified player is subbed out. Otherwise, once the ball is live, it's a technical foul.

The coach sent in multiple subs.
The disqualified player didn't come out.

MFL shot its free throws, and once the ball was live (on the missed second FT), play was stopped and the technical foul assessed.
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The rule does state that the player should be notified after the coach is notified. But usually what happens is, you notify the coach and ask the timer to count off 20 seconds, the coach gets his sub right up before you even have a chance to say anything to the player.

It's possible the coach said OK, got his subs right up and the official and/or bench official incorrectly assumed he subbed in for the disqualified player. If the officials got together and determined the coach had been properly notified I guess they had no choice but to issue the penalty.

Either way, it SHOULD have been prevented from happening. Preventive officiating is something all officials talk about and something we all need to do more of.
 
ruxCYtable said:
Either way, it SHOULD have been prevented from happening. Preventive officiating is something all officials talk about and something we all need to do more of.
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Bingo. Apparently stripes forgot about the whole "work with the coaches" thing. I won't even administer the first free throw shot until the coach replaces the player. Most of the time when you say "That's 5" to the player they walk off.

Although a good coach would know exactly how many fouls each of his players has.

Edit: Just read that the Sioux Center coach was told his player had fouled out but wasn't properly replaced. I have a hard time blaming stripes here. It's the coach's responsibility to make sure he has the correct personnel on the floor, not the officials. They have enough crap to watch. The table should've sounded the horn before the first free throw was administered.
 
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I really don't see the problem. The ref told the coach and the coach screwed up and didn't make sure his guy was out of the game. How can you blame the refs for that? I hate it when officials talk about "preventative officiating" as if it is their job to make sure no one on the court does something stupid. Just enforce the rules. If a coach or player screws up it's their fault.
 
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