Does Baylor Cheat?
- Thread starter daniel22
- Start date
We're not talking about evidence. We're talking about judgements. This isn't "innocent until proven guilty" stuff.
Yeah, and Hoiberg is also only in year 2. I have great admiration for the Mayor, and have liked him since he played for the Bulls (was born in Chicago, love all Chi teams). He'll start getting those players. He is at a bit of a disadvantage in relation to Drew because Texas high school hoops has blown up in the past few years, while Iowa has never really been a basketball hotbed (although Harrison Barnes is a heck of a player from that area...if Hoiberg had been around a few years earlier, you guys might have landed him).
If you want, I can get into the recruiting battles for specific players, but again, I don't want to waste your time or mine.
Fair enough. I really have no argument against you getting any one player, it just seems like as a whole it is unlikely to me, that's all. Maybe I'm bitter about the loss.
One last question, what ever happened with that NCAA investigation? I really don't know much about it.
Really?
Again we will try to use actual logic, I know this may be tough...
Baylor came as close to the death penalty as anyone has since SMU. They had a player MURDER another one...They had the NCAA come in and not allow them to play a non conference schedule one year...They have ZERO tradition, they have ZERO appeal with casual fans. They were one of the main schools on the outside looking in during realignment...They were worse off that IOWA STATE was in that discussion...
Do you HONESTLY think that a program with their past, and that fan support would not be someone the NCAA would make an example of, IF they were blatantly cheating??? IN FACT, THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT TO THEM BEFORE...
And OF COURSE the selective reading continues, OF COURSE he blurs the ethical lines when recruiting. BUT so does everyone else. You think Rick Barnes doesn't do it? You think Fran McCaffery doesn't do it? OF course they do, and they should, I would be ****** if my coach wasn't employing the same methods as the people he recruits against...
See when you actually sound it out, this whole stupid thread doesn't add up...Baylor would be destroyed if they were ever caught again...
That's the thing though...everyone acts like we're getting Kentucky and Duke-level classes. Here are our recruiting rankings for the past few years according to Rivals:
2011 - 14th
2010 - 25th
2009 - 19th (which is deceiving, because 1 of the 6 guys never stepped foot on campus and 3 other ones have transferred out)
2008 - not ranked in the Top 30
2007 - not ranked in the Top 30
2006 - 17th
2005 - 16th
2004 - Not ranked in the Top 25
2003 - Not ranked in the Top 25
We haven't ever pulled one Top 10 class, much less doing it multiple times.
OP brings up a semi valid point in that it is kind of strange. Since the early 70s, Baylor's win percentage is about 48% overall. And before 2008, they'd only been to 1 NCAA tournament since then which was in 1988. Before that, it was 1950.
Scott Drew was 36-69 (34% Win pct) in his first four years at Baylor, and then all of a sudden one year started doing better and getting better, and better, and better recruits. He was a head coach for exactly one year before that at Valpo, and an assistant under his dad for a decade before that, and a student manager at Butler in the early 90s.
Sure, you could compare ISU to this because ISU sucked before the early-ish to mid 80s too, but there's a difference here. We hired Johnny Orr, who was a high profile coach. He was and still is the all-time winningest coach at Michigan and people, especially in the state of Michigan, already knew who he was and knew he was successful. Fast forward to Fred Hoiberg. Fred Hoiberg played in the NBA for 10 seasons then worked the front office for a few years after. He is friends with tons of coaches and pretty much every GM. The guy has connections and it makes sense why he's getting high profile recruits.
Anyway, my point in all of this is that Scott Drew did absolutely jack **** before 2007. The guy had a 34% win percentage and had barely been head coaching before. He never even played High School ball, let alone college. Baylor a few years before had a murder cover-up and had only been to the NCAA tournament only once in 50+ years. IMO yes, it is a little shady. Any ethical way could be done, who knows...they could sell them on the fact that Baylor is a decent academic school but I doubt that.
I mean really, how do you start selling these guys from the beginning starting in 2007 or 2008 when they first started winning some games? "Yeah...we haven't been to the NCAA tournament in 20 years, and that was the only time in 58 years, but uhhh...come to Baylor!!" Kind of shady IMO, but who knows. Anything is possible.
Scott Drew was 36-69 (34% Win pct) in his first four years at Baylor, and then all of a sudden one year started doing better and getting better, and better, and better recruits. He was a head coach for exactly one year before that at Valpo, and an assistant under his dad for a decade before that, and a student manager at Butler in the early 90s.
Sure, you could compare ISU to this because ISU sucked before the early-ish to mid 80s too, but there's a difference here. We hired Johnny Orr, who was a high profile coach. He was and still is the all-time winningest coach at Michigan and people, especially in the state of Michigan, already knew who he was and knew he was successful. Fast forward to Fred Hoiberg. Fred Hoiberg played in the NBA for 10 seasons then worked the front office for a few years after. He is friends with tons of coaches and pretty much every GM. The guy has connections and it makes sense why he's getting high profile recruits.
Anyway, my point in all of this is that Scott Drew did absolutely jack **** before 2007. The guy had a 34% win percentage and had barely been head coaching before. He never even played High School ball, let alone college. Baylor a few years before had a murder cover-up and had only been to the NCAA tournament only once in 50+ years. IMO yes, it is a little shady. Any ethical way could be done, who knows...they could sell them on the fact that Baylor is a decent academic school but I doubt that.
I mean really, how do you start selling these guys from the beginning starting in 2007 or 2008 when they first started winning some games? "Yeah...we haven't been to the NCAA tournament in 20 years, and that was the only time in 58 years, but uhhh...come to Baylor!!" Kind of shady IMO, but who knows. Anything is possible.
With Fred Hoiberg? No, not really. Have we forgotten that Fred Hoiberg played in the NBA for 10 years under coaches like Larry Brown and Larry Bird, is friends with tons of players and coaches, not to mention he was in the front office for a handful of years. As he said in his press conference upon hire, he has every GM in the NBA on his speed dial.
THAT is why we're getting recruits. IMO if we started getting top 20 or top 10 recruits within 2 years from now, I wouldn't be surprised at all. Hoiberg has MAD connections to the NBA and any recruit with half a brain knows that. All we have to do is show that we/Hoiberg can compete in the Big 12 and the recruits will get better and better because of that and his ridiculous connections. Not to mention ISU has had a decent amount of success in basketball since the mid 80s and has been to the NCAA Tournament many times.
Baylor and Scott Drew? Scott Drew didn't do ****, ever, before a few years ago. His win percentage was 34% before 2007 at Baylor in four seasons. The guy didn't even play HS basketball. The only thing going for him is that his dad has won a ton of games at the D1 level, except it's with Valpo who is a low mid major. Not to mention Baylor has been to the NCAA tournament exactly 4 times since 1950. What the **** does he have to sell anyone on? At least Hoiberg can say "Yeah, I played in the NBA for 10 years and was drafted, and I know every GM in the NBA because I worked in the front office for 5 years." Scott Drew has a sales pitch now, but in the beginning a few years ago, what did he try and tell them? The only thing I can think of is that Baylor is a decent academic school. Other than that, they had nothing to sell any top 20/10 recruit on.
Tell me why ISU would be just as suspicious as Baylor? ISU is way less suspicious.
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I don't think many people are crying about the game. Baylor is a legitimate top 10 team with great, great talent and they played at home.
I am not upset at all and actually did not think we had a great chance of winning this game anyway. However, when you look at it, Baylor's recruiting lately is rather....odd. Having that in mind doesn't mean you are ****** about a game though.
Information overload alert: For those that aren't aware of it, Mark Morefield is the guy at the center of the issue in question. He is your classic "overzealous assistant" who made a bad decision by sending a text message to an AAU coach during a game (which was the only violation) and then amplified his mistake by sending more to the recruit in question's high school coach.
The player in question is Hanner Perea, a Colombian native whom the Baylor coaching staff discovered and secured a Visa for, in order to get him to play in America. He was "placed" at a basketball academy in Indiana (debate the ethical nature of that if you want, but it is technically within NCAA rules), with a program called AHOPE. The man who founded and runs AHOPE is Mark Adams, whose son Drew was subsequently hired to a non-coaching position at Indiana. Like clockwork, Indiana starts getting the commitment of all of the AHOPE guys, including Perea.
Morefield understandably gets upset, having doen all the legwork to get Perea to America and into a basketball academy where he could be recruited by Baylor. Knowing that Perea's guardians trust the Baylor coaching staff, and the Baylor staff only, he sends a text to Mark Adams (during his coaching of an AAU game, which is a secondary violation) stating something along the lines of "If Hanner goes anywhere else [other than Baylor, is the assumption] he's going to be back in Colombia next year, and don't you forget it."
Adams, or the Indiana staff, leaks this text (and this text only) to an Indiana paper who writes an article lambasting Baylor for "threatening to deport a player that won't sign with them," and the whole thing gets legs. NCAA gets wind of it, heads to Waco, wraps up their investigation within about a week and scurries off to Indiana to investigate AHOPE and the Drew Adams connection (Adams subsequently takes a position at New Mexico, at a pay decrease).
While the NCAA has not formally closed the investigation at either school, Morefield fell on his sword and "resigned to pursue other basketball opportunities." It's probably pretty doubtful that either school will receive more than a slap on the wrist. It's not one of our brighter moments, to be sure.
Sorry for the length.
Ahh, but neither did Drew. His first McD was Tweety Carter in 2005 or 2006...The first one is always the toughest.
Fred has done fine recruitingwise as well, give him a bit to get some connections. People forget that Drew recruited for his dad for many years, and that got his name out there.
PLUS, Baylor was a disaster when he got there, obviously. The MBB program coming back from the dead (no pun intended) was a big story. He managed to take all of the negative publicity, and use his natural optimism to sell himself and his program to the country. I heard him doing interviews countless times on national radio shows.
I think he is as dirty as any average coach that recruits 15-17 year old kids to come to his school.
What will happen WHEN Freddie gets a big fish to come here? I guess we better self report and get hammered by the NCAA then, because apparently the ONLY way that could ever happen is by cheating...
I'm up studying for a test.
When you look at the evidence as you all have clearly stated, it does seem that something fishy is going on down there in Waco. I just think the timing of the thread was very poor. How does it look that the top thread after a 15 point loss to Baylor is "Does Baylor Cheat?" To me, it looks like we are sore losers.
its been discussed before. it just got brought to the front of everyones mind because of the loss. i was simply thinking "holy ****. how is baylor this good with zero tradition and twelve fans in attendance" idk what they sell their recruits on.
Let's not forget this was for Valpo. Sure, you can learn the psychological aspect of recruiting, but suffice to say I'm pretty sure Scott Drew was not recruiting the egomaniac type of personality that many of the top recruits are. Valpo was part of basically the Summit league back then which is a low major conference. They had success which is why they're now in the Horizon league, but let's think about it. Imagine recruiting right now for South Dakota State University....you can't really compare those recruits in a psychological aspect to the head cases that are the top recruits (on average).