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Coaching Versus Execution

M

mbra

New Member
Mar 11, 2014
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I see a lot people making comments that separate coaching and execution on the court. I think that is terrible mistake to do so - with one day until March a team's ability to execute is in large part a result of coaching.

Iowa State has shown numerous times an inability to close out games and maintain leads (don't get me wrong, I know there are exceptions). Many of these instances came about because mistakes down the stretch (today and Wednesday included obviously).

I just say this because it makes no sense to argue with someone by saying, "Well this one isn't on Hoiberg, it's on player X, Y, or Z". As Hoiberg will tell you every win and loss is on him. It is his job to have the right guys in the right places making the right play.

Hoiberg is an excellent coach but I think he certainly has room to grow in end-of-game coaching.
 
mbra said:
I see a lot people making comments that separate coaching and execution on the court. I think that is terrible mistake to do so - with one day until March a team's ability to execute is in large part a result of coaching.

Iowa State has shown numerous times an inability to close out games and maintain leads (don't get me wrong, I know there are exceptions). Many of these instances came about because mistakes down the stretch (today and Wednesday included obviously).

I just say this because it makes no sense to argue with someone by saying, "Well this one isn't on Hoiberg, it's on player X, Y, or Z". As Hoiberg will tell you every win and loss is on him. It is his job to have the right guys in the right places making the right play.

Hoiberg is an excellent coach but I think he certainly has room to grow in end-of-game coaching.
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Hoiberg's been coaching now for 5 years, in a conference where the majority of coaches have been at it much longer than that. It shows at times, and probably will continue to show until he gets a few more years under his belt.
 
So that means that he was a genius last year when the team was winning close games? I think the idea to get the ball to Hougue and then to McKay was a good plan, Dustin just couldn't make the open pass on one and McKay wasn't ready to catch the pass on the other.

Also, throwing the ball into the back court wasn't his idea and the pass to McKay was poor execution.

i think the strategies were there, the team just choked. Same as the end of the Baylor game; couldn't make an open three when the pressure was on.
 
I would argue that with a large enough sample size, coaching is correlated to execution. Maybe not one play, or one game, but from what I've seen this season, we have room to grow in both and the are related. We will get there, and I do believe in Fred, but our focus at critical times is not only lacking, it leaves the building.
 
You are proving my point in that you can't separate strategy and execution (they go hand in hand). To be honest, if you think the strategy against Baylor in the last minutes of the game "was there", I have to assume you did not watch the game. Maintaining a defensive strategy that focuses on protecting the paint while Gathers is on the bench forcing over help on drivers all while Baylor's strategy is clearly play the perimeter - not a good strategy. I won't even get into the complete confusion on intentionally fouling - the strategy just was not there.
 
I hear what you are saying, I do. But I also think it depends if we "know" exactly what the coach told or didn't tell the players regarding plays. Hypothetical here: Let's say CFH called for a last shot play to run for a 3 point attempt from Thomas from the wing. If we "knew" this to be the call, then we can debate all week about the scrupulousness of that call. If he ran an inbounds play with Georges (when he tried to throw to McKay) with the intent on throwing to McKay, then we have something to discuss. But we don't know these things for sure and thus it's terribly hard to say one way or another.

One last example: Remember when Michigan under Fisher lost in the last minute largely due to the timeout call by Weber? It's said that Fisher did indeed tell his team they had no timeouts left to call but Weber panicked and called one anyway, leading to the famous technical. Is that on Fisher? No. He said the right thing, but the players play the game.
 
jbhtexas said:
Hoiberg's been coaching now for 5 years, in a conference where the majority of coaches have been at it much longer than that. It shows at times, and probably will continue to show until he gets a few more years under his belt.
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Georges three brain farts at the end did not help.
 
It's both. Coaches and players both are at fault for losing both games this week and deserve every drop of criticism they get
 
CoKane said:
It's both. Coaches and players both are at fault for losing both games this week and deserve every drop of criticism they get
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Not a flame CoKane. I totally get your frustration, and I don't think anyone can really argue that too much, although Baylor was out of the world hot from outside. But it's still hard to discuss without specifics. Let's say my hypothetical above was established as a fact; in other words, the final play was designed to be a three point shot by Thomas from the wing. Do you think that's worthy of criticism? I personally think that is worthy of being a questionable call because Monte had been having so much success getting to the rim.
 
mbra said:
I see a lot people making comments that separate coaching and execution on the court. I think that is terrible mistake to do so - with one day until March a team's ability to execute is in large part a result of coaching.

Iowa State has shown numerous times an inability to close out games and maintain leads (don't get me wrong, I know there are exceptions). Many of these instances came about because mistakes down the stretch (today and Wednesday included obviously).

I just say this because it makes no sense to argue with someone by saying, "Well this one isn't on Hoiberg, it's on player X, Y, or Z". As Hoiberg will tell you every win and loss is on him. It is his job to have the right guys in the right places making the right play.

Hoiberg is an excellent coach but I think he certainly has room to grow in end-of-game coaching.
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Something I think Doc helped a lot with.
 
agcy68 said:
So that means that he was a genius last year when the team was winning close games? I think the idea to get the ball to Hougue and then to McKay was a good plan, Dustin just couldn't make the open pass on one and McKay wasn't ready to catch the pass on the other.

Also, throwing the ball into the back court wasn't his idea and the pass to McKay was poor execution.

i think the strategies were there, the team just choked. Same as the end of the Baylor game; couldn't make an open three when the pressure was on.
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Agree to a point. Niang has now turned the ball over 3 times in crunch time leading to losses. However, we have turned the ball over on inbounds plays a lot this season, so maybe we need some new plays? How about clearing space for McKay and lobbing it where only he can get it?

Anyway, we lost 2 of our last 3 conference games last year and did O.K. in the Big XII and NCAA tourneys. Playing for a 3 seed now.
 
jbhtexas said:
Hoiberg's been coaching now for 5 years, in a conference where the majority of coaches have been at it much longer than that. It shows at times, and probably will continue to show until he gets a few more years under his belt.
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Would you expect someone to learn not to pee on an electric fence after the first try, or would you expect it to take them 5 years to figure it out?

Fred is making the SAME mistakes that have continually cost his team games throughout his tenure. The mismanagement of timeouts, poor roster utilization (McKay and Morris should only leave games when necessitated or playing very poorly), and having Niang bring the ball up the floor (the ball should have to be pried out of Monte's hands) are inexcusable.

Right now our players are making a lot of bad decisions in crunch time whether it be passing, shot selection, or poor defense. How can we expect our players to be good decisions when the coach doesn't?

KState had no business even being in this game. This was a gift-wrapped victory.
 
Part of the problem with this team is they don't do the little things well and they don't know how to finish a team off. A lot of that falls back on Fred. Yes he is a great coach but he also has some things he needs to work on and figure out.
 
ZRF said:
Would you expect someone to learn not to pee on an electric fence after the first try, or would you expect it to take them 5 years to figure it out?

Fred is making the SAME mistakes that have continually cost his team games throughout his tenure. The mismanagement of timeouts, poor roster utilization (McKay and Morris should only leave games when necessitated or playing very poorly), and having Niang bring the ball up the floor (the ball should have to be pried out of Monte's hands) are inexcusable.

Right now our players are making a lot of bad decisions in crunch time whether it be passing, shot selection, or poor defense. How can we expect our players to be good decisions when the coach doesn't?

KState had no business even being in this game. This was a gift-wrapped victory.
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The game coaching didn't cost ISU the game today. You cannot expect a player to play all 40 of a game.
 
ZRF said:
Would you expect someone to learn not to pee on an electric fence after the first try, or would you expect it to take them 5 years to figure it out?

Fred is making the SAME mistakes that have continually cost his team games throughout his tenure. The mismanagement of timeouts, poor roster utilization (McKay and Morris should only leave games when necessitated or playing very poorly), and having Niang bring the ball up the floor (the ball should have to be pried out of Monte's hands) are inexcusable.

Right now our players are making a lot of bad decisions in crunch time whether it be passing, shot selection, or poor defense. How can we expect our players to be good decisions when the coach doesn't?

KState had no business even being in this game. This was a gift-wrapped victory.
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Holy crap. I really hope you forgot a jimlad, because this is so full of stupid. Niang took 10 seconds to cross half-court. Why? He was trying to be cool and walk up the court. Every player on the court for us has the ability to beat their guy down the court within ten seconds. Georges just made a dumb play. That's not on Hoiberg or anybody else, that's on Georges.

Also, Monte and Jameel each played over 32 minutes. Play them anymore than that and they're essentially playing the whole game.

Mismanagement of timeouts? I would say he did a good job using timeouts, considering we obviously needed them towards the end of the game when our inbounds play fell apart. Georges didn't call it and it gave away our lead just like that. Now, if Hoiberg and the staff didn't make it clear that we had a timeout left, then I can see that being on the staff. You don't know that to be the case, though.

Betting the farm that you're a coach of a middle school basketball team.
 
AMarner32 said:
Holy crap. I really hope you forgot a jimlad, because this is so full of stupid. Niang took 10 seconds to cross half-court. Why? He was trying to be cool and walk up the court. Every player on the court for us has the ability to beat their guy down the court within ten seconds. Georges just made a dumb play. That's not on Hoiberg or anybody else, that's on Georges.

Also, Monte and Jameel each played over 32 minutes. Play them anymore than that and they're essentially playing the whole game.

Mismanagement of timeouts? I would say he did a good job using timeouts, considering we obviously needed them towards the end of the game when our inbounds play fell apart. Georges didn't call it and it gave away our lead just like that. Now, if Hoiberg and the staff didn't make it clear that we had a timeout left, then I can see that being on the staff. You don't know that to be the case, though.

Betting the farm that you're a coach of a middle school basketball team.
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Didn't you know there is only one correct way to play the game of basketball, and Fred's hybrid monstrosity isn't it. :jimlad:
 
Here is my issue with Fred. It's great he gives them freedom on the floor. So let them play with freedom the first 37 minutes of the game, but when the game is on the line, it's FRED who needs to step up and lead. With 3 minutes left, the ball should ALWAYS be in Monte's hands and the offense should run through Georges. Give them exact plays to run. Put them in situations where they can be successful. In the end, these are still 18-23 year olds who need to be led to the water to drink every now and then.
 
AMarner32 said:
Holy crap. I really hope you forgot a jimlad, because this is so full of stupid. Niang took 10 seconds to cross half-court. Why? He was trying to be cool and walk up the court. Every player on the court for us has the ability to beat their guy down the court within ten seconds. Georges just made a dumb play. That's not on Hoiberg or anybody else, that's on Georges.

Also, Monte and Jameel each played over 32 minutes. Play them anymore than that and they're essentially playing the whole game.

Mismanagement of timeouts? I would say he did a good job using timeouts, considering we obviously needed them towards the end of the game when our inbounds play fell apart. Georges didn't call it and it gave away our lead just like that. Now, if Hoiberg and the staff didn't make it clear that we had a timeout left, then I can see that being on the staff. You don't know that to be the case, though.

Betting the farm that you're a coach of a middle school basketball team.
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AMarner, another of my favorite posters here.

Trying to reason with folks on here who paint with such a broad brush and ONLY in black and white paint is futile!
 
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