City of Des Moines Money Grab-Starting Tomorrow

[weisr2002]

Traffic Cameras, for "safety" of course. City of Des Moines wants more of your money since they can't properly manage the money we already give them.

Des Moines traffic cameras to go live Friday

 

[pyrocyz]

People complaining about getting in trouble when they break the law will commence immediately

 

[IcSyU]

He notes a poll conducted in Cedar Rapids, one year after the cameras were installed, found 64% of citizens felt the cameras improved public safety while 28% felt they were only put in place to generate revenue.

Was the poll conducted asking
a) improve safety
b) money grab
c) other

If a and b aren't allowed to be selected at the same time, that's an extremely faulty survey.

Other cities have generated hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue from the cameras, but Des Moines Police Sergeant Chris Scott insists the primary goal is improving safety. “The police department’s stance on this is you simply shouldn’t be speeding or running red lights,” Scott said.

Gatso will collect $27 from each paid red light citation and $25 for each speeding violation.

In that case, fine, then each speeding ticket should be $25 and each red light citation should be $27.

Although I will say I'd MUCH rather be nailed speeding by one of these than an officer. Doesn't go to insurance and you don't have to pay a ridiculous court cost that costs more than the fine itself.

2005 ticket (7 over):
$30 court costs
$40 fine
$12.80 surcharge
$82.80 ticket

2011 ticket (5 over):
$60 court costs
$40 fine
$14 surcharge
$114 ticket

$65 sounds dandy compared to $114.

 

[ianoconnor]

Ball breaker.

 

[alarson]

Id be fine with red light cameras if it was just flagrant violations of red lights, blowing straight through them.

I have a problem with them when they primarily tag people who were just a little late (lengthening the yellow would cut a lot of these) and getting those who didnt come to a complete stop on a right turn. Neither would typically be ticketed by an actual officer, so the camera shouldnt either.

IIRC one of clive's most lucrative cameras is the one coming off the interstate, racking up tickets on those turning right on red without completely stopping. Technically not legal, but depending on the intersection you often dont need to come to a complete stop to assess the safety of an intersection as you come up to it, and 99% of cops arent going to pull you over for it.

As for speed cameras, lets get a reasonable speed limit on 235 before we put up a camera there. 235 should be 65 minimum through all of des moines, and it should stay 70 for most of it.

 

[BigBake]

There would be no push to install these cameras if they didn't generate revenue or at least pay for themselves.

Do a survey and find out how many politicians or voters would support these in the interest of public safety and that it would cost taxpayers more for them.

That answer right there proves they are a money grab number 1 and have an added benefit of public safety.

 

[Al_4_State]

Agree with alarson that the biggest problem are the grey areas. What about people waiting to turn left that can't complete the turn until it's yellow? They have to choose between risking it or hanging out in the lane and causing an accident. It creates a Catch-22. Generally, in these cases, a human officer would excuse it, as they should.

IMO, this kind of stuff is better left to human officers who will generally take these grey areas into account.

With speeding, its less of a problem, because there isn't any "grey area". I agree that the limit on 235 needs to go up. Should be 65 all the way through.

 

[CyorDie]

I read somewhere that going just 1 mph over the speed limit will still cost you $65. That blows my mind. Doesn't a cop typically allow a driver a few mph over the limit?

 

[heyguy85]

Don't break the law and it's not a money grab. If I push it through a yellow/red light I know I'm risking a ticket. Slow down and drive safe sounds like a simple solution.

 

[pyrocyz]

I read somewhere that going just 1 mph over the speed limit will still cost you $65. That blows my mind. Doesn't a cop typically allow a driver a few mph over the limit?

Last time I looked at a speed limit sign it didn't say "65 +/- 5 if you feel like it"


People are acting like this is the first time that they have ever been asked to obey the actual rules of the road.

 

[djcubby]

There is a reason that you have to wait a couple of seconds before you take off on green in Des Moines. I've driven in Minneapolis, KC, Chicago, Indy, and numerous other large metropolitan areas, but I have not ever seen as many people blow through lights that just turn red as I do in Des Moines.

It could be worse, it's $100 fine in Clive, the new lights in Des Moines are only $65.

 

[djcubby]

I have a problem with them when they primarily tag people who were just a little late (lengthening the yellow would cut a lot of these) and getting those who didnt come to a complete stop on a right turn. Neither would typically be ticketed by an actual officer, so the camera shouldnt either.

No it wouldn't. People are going to try and sneak through regardless of the length of the yellow. I travel on Hickman everyday from Urbandale to Waukee and I don't even risk it anymore because I know I have to go by at least 3 cameras. If it's yellow and there is no guarantee I can make it, I stop.

 

[BigBake]

The +\- thing is in place because motorist are given a margin of error that their cars speedometer is off.

Only police vehicles have their speedometers calibrated.

 

[longtimeclone]

I would be fine if all proceeds for these cameras would fund the cameras themselves and then go to finding a way to make the area around 73rd and 8th exit a four lane. I think that is such a bottleneck in the whole commute to/from downtown.

 

[pyrocyz]

The +\- thing is in place because motorist are given a margin of error that their cars speedometer is off.

Only police vehicles have their speedometers calibrated.

So wouldn't it be advantageous for you to determine if your speedometer is off, that way you know if you are speeding?

There is no plus or minus when it comes to drunk driving even though peoples internal "Drunkness meter" might be different than the cops breathalizer...

Same with weight scales. Truckdrivers don't have scales built into their trucks so before they hit the road they get their weight checked so that they don't get in trouble.

Just trying to look at it from not a money grad point of view.

 

[DRCHIRO]

Agree with alarson that the biggest problem are the grey areas. What about people waiting to turn left that can't complete the turn until it's yellow? They have to choose between risking it or hanging out in the lane and causing an accident. It creates a Catch-22. Generally, in these cases, a human officer would excuse it, as they should.

IMO, this kind of stuff is better left to human officers who will generally take these grey areas into account.

With speeding, its less of a problem, because there isn't any "grey area". I agree that the limit on 235 needs to go up. Should be 65 all the way through.

"Police say drivers can still turn right on red. They just want you stop behind the white line before making your turn. There are exceptions. Drivers caught in the intersection trying to turn left when the light turns red won't be ticketed."

This is from an article I read on the WHO website.

 

[matmann22]

Last time I looked at a speed limit sign it didn't say "65 +/- 5 if you feel like it"


People are acting like this is the first time that they have ever been asked to obey the actual rules of the road.

For those of you that cant see the forest because you get distracted by the tree directly in front of you, lets see if we can try this again.

1) A MACHINE is taking over the job of those highly trained law enforcement professionals. Yeah I know, some local cop is going to spend exactly 1 second looking at the pictures....

2) They created a new separate class of penalties for these infractions since a law enforcement professional is not issuing them.

3) The penalty is now a civil offense (ie no impact on driving record of insurance) while the exact same crime cited by a law enforcement professional is CRIMINAL.

4) IN theory, if you are ONE INCH over the white stop line you can get a ticket. I say theory because they wont give a straight answer to this question (police or des moines money grabbing politicos when asked). This is interesting, what if it is winter and there is snow covering the road ? How the heck do I know where the stop line is ? What if strong winds or a moron installer have the angle wrong ?

5) If you drive an automoblie and think you have never been one mph over the speed limit at some point, you are delussional or 85 years old and driving 15 mph around the east side of des moines. I can speed on my mountain bike on residential streets.

6) If I run the red light or speed on my bicycle, how do I get a ticket ?

7) If a security camera catches me robbing a bank ? Is it now a civil offense punishable by only a fine ? Why not ?

8) Can we put up another camera at 9th and grand to catch all the jaywalkers and walk against the traffic device crowd ?

9) What about the jack *** driving the Ankeny Sanitation truck the other morning that roared through a light that had been red for at least 10 seconds. Does the camera catch that ?

 

[CloneIce]

Studies have shown they decrease fatalities and major accidents (usually T-bone accidents from someone running the red), while increasing "fender-bender" rear end accidents (because people hit the brakes to avoid running the red light.

So yes, there is a valid safety reason for installing them. Also, I'm sure they would like to increase traffic ticket revenue, so its likely both a safety and money thing.

 

[DRCHIRO]

I would be fine if all proceeds for these cameras would fund the cameras themselves and then go to finding a way to make the area around 73rd and 8th exit a four lane. I think that is such a bottleneck in the whole commute to/from downtown.

I was speaking to a Des Moines police officer a couple weeks ago and he said that a company from Europe (forget the country), does all the setup, maintenance, etc. That company then gets a percentage of the money collected.

 

[alarson]

So wouldn't it be advantageous for you to determine if your speedometer is off, that way you know if you are speeding?

There is no plus or minus when it comes to drunk driving even though peoples internal "Drunkness meter" might be different than the cops breathalizer...

Same with weight scales. Truckdrivers don't have scales built into their trucks so before they hit the road they get their weight checked so that they don't get in trouble.

Just trying to look at it from not a money grad point of view.

The problem is, many times the speed limits are arbitrarily set by politicians, and when there's talk of raising them some of them say 'people are going to go 10 over anyways, so i dont want to raise it from (example) 55 to 65 because people will go 65 anyways'. The fact that people are going to go 5-10 over has been built into many of our speed limits. To start enforcing lower than that with automatic fines you need to adjust the speed limit up accordingly. Raising 235 to 70mph (maybe 65mph for a short stretch downtown) and putting in a speed camera would seem like a good compromise.