In college after a day drinking infused with mushrooms and 420...DUNE was awesome
Dune Universe Thread
- Thread starter Triggermv
- Start date
Much like Avatar being written by James Cameron, what early 80s (?), the original Dune was outdone by lack of technological advances in cinema.
However, if it weren't for my damn brother and seeing the book Dune all over the place, I probably would have never watched the movie as a young child. But soon after, fell in love with Water of Life, Blue Eyes, and worms...worms...worms (about the same time as How to Eat Fried Worms).
Its take on AI is probably the most revolutionary and powerful in any media ever. It does it in a subtle way but it’s there in the world itself, or more accurate its absence.
Far more relevant now than in the 60s. Totally different take than Hal in 2001 but maybe more interesting.
By envisioning a world without intelligent machines, it also kept itself from being dated like most sci fi now is (other than faster than light travel).
Yeah, I don't see where one would find Dune "simplistic."
It's outwardly a story of political intrigue with an intricate plot and layered characters. In this sense, Herbert was very strongly influenced by Shakespeare, especially the histories and tragedies. A personal drama (e.g., Paul mourning Leto and wanting revenge) wrapped in politics (e.g., Hamlet and Claudius).
A layer up from that it's a story about mythology and fate. In this sense, Herbert was strongly influenced by The Lord of the Rings and Greek tragedy (even giving you the hint with the "Atreides").
A layer up from that its outwardly a hero's journey (the same The Hero with a Thousand Faces text that influenced George Lucas) but rather than a straightforward recitation of it (as Star Wars does) it is a complex deconstruction of the hero's journey. It replaces the "hero" who "saves the people" with a much more deeply woven story about ecology, colonialism, and what it really means to go out there and fight for freedom.
And after that there's a layer of complex political theory and political economy. I wasn't a political science major, but Dune has much to say about who should rule and how they should be ruling.
I'm not saying other science fiction can't be complex or layered, but compared to Star Wars (Lucas' great genius was simplifying Dune to keep the weird and intriguing setting but simplifying the plot to make it breezy popcorn action without undermining the mythology too much) or the MCU... Dune is dense.
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The books yes, but those things didn't come across in the movie for me. Sure the story is incomplete for now, but there is much to the whole power structure that just doesn't make sense to me. Why doesn't the Space Guild directly control Arrakis if the spice is so important to them? Why is the Emperor willing to disrupt the flow of spice to destroy a political rival when the house that already controlled the most important thing in the universe was on his side? What was it about House Atreides that was such a threat that they needed destroyed outside of vague rising political power? Why if House Atreides knew the whole thing was setup that they were so woefully unprepared for the inevitable betrayal and attack?
Again, the books may be a wonderfully deep examination of all that you have stated, but the film taken on it's own merits just doesn't do that for me.
Zendaya = Yes
Sandworms = No
Seriously, look up a video of a real life sandworm up close - absolutely scary AF.
I'm really excited for part 2. I read the book for the first time before Part 1 was released and I've been rereading it ahead of Part 2 because there is so much in it. As earlier comments said, Dune is dense. I think the themes and ideas of the Dune universe are fascinating -- the religious aspect of the Bene Gesserit tied to the politics of the planetary feudal system and the ecology and environmental aspects.
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I love you. Thank you for posting this.
Why doesn't Maersk control the oilfields and refineries it needs to move its ships?
Because running a narrow monopoly (not that Maersk is a monopoly, but the Guild is) on interstellar travel is a much more high-margin and low-risk venture than the hard work of governing.
The Guild lets the Emperor of the Great Houses do that stuff... wars, vendettas, politics, etc., all those things that would induce unnecessary costs and risks to their cushy business model.
There's a fragile balance in the Imperial economy and politics... the Emperor and Great Houses supply the spice and other goods and the Guild moves them around... the Guild collects a lucrative markup for its services, but the Emperor and Great Houses tolerate it for the assuredness of transport.
In MBA speak, the Guild is concentrating on its "core competency" and outsourcing everything else.
The political economy of Dune is the story of this fragile system blowing up.
There's a political crisis brewing in the Imperium built around the Emperor's lack of a son (one engineered by the Bene Gesserit to create political conditions favorable to their plans).
The Emperor doesn't have an heir. The man to marry his eldest daughter Irulan (Florence Pugh in the upcoming second film) will either be the next emperor or the father of the next emperor. Either way, countless generations of Corrino rule come to an end as this new house takes over the throne.
This brewing crisis is driving the Emperor insane. The Atreides are the obvious successors...
-- Leto/Paul and the Emperor are semi-distant cousins
-- the Atreides are well-liked and well-regarded by the other Great Houses
-- they're known for their honesty and trustworthiness in a grubby world of imperial politics
-- their military is small but man-to-man can match the Sardaukar
Paul marrying Irulan and producing an Atreides/Corrino heir solves this problem.
The problem is the Emperor doesn't want this. He's stubbornly clinging to his own power and the legacy of Corrino rule since the founding of the Imperium. This problem makes him aggressive and willing to take risks. So, he hatches the plot with the Harkonnen, the Atreides' ancestral enemies, to take them out of the picture. And you know what, it almost works for him... everybody thinks it worked at the end of Part One.
Leto and his marshals know it is a trap. They thought it worth it because...
-- Law and custom says that defying the Emperor's order they take over Arrakis would make them a renegade house. They have no other choices but to accept or to flee the Imperium.
-- Arrakis prints money. Controlling spice production brings enormous wealth and political leverage. If they can weather the storm, then they know the long-term dividends will be incredible.
-- Leto and his marshals (especially Duncan) are very aware of the Fremen and see them as natural and powerful allies (rather than a native people to be brutalize as the Harkonnen saw). Rather than fighting them, they plan to use them. They're an "undervalued asset" in MBA terms again to the Atredies.
-- The Atredies were prepared for the assault, but a traitor in their ranks decapitated them (capturing Leto) and metaphorically "threw open the gates" for the Harkonnen and the Sarduakar. That traitor was supposed to have undergone unbreakable conditioning... that the Baron found a way to break.
Spoilers...
Why doesn't Maersk control the oilfields and refineries it needs to move its ships?
Because running a narrow monopoly (not that Maersk is a monopoly, but the Guild is) on interstellar travel is a much more high-margin and low-risk venture than the hard work of governing.
The Guild lets the Emperor of the Great Houses do that stuff... wars, vendettas, politics, etc., all those things that would induce unnecessary costs and risks to their cushy business model.
There's a fragile balance in the Imperial economy and politics... the Emperor and Great Houses supply the spice and other goods and the Guild moves them around... the Guild collects a lucrative markup for its services, but the Emperor and Great Houses tolerate it for the assuredness of transport.
In MBA speak, the Guild is concentrating on its "core competency" and outsourcing everything else.
The political economy of Dune is the story of this fragile system blowing up.
There's a political crisis brewing in the Imperium built around the Emperor's lack of a son (one engineered by the Bene Gesserit to create political conditions favorable to their plans).
The Emperor doesn't have an heir. The man to marry his eldest daughter Irulan (Florence Pugh in the upcoming second film) will either be the next emperor or the father of the next emperor. Either way, countless generations of Corrino rule come to an end as this new house takes over the throne.
This brewing crisis is driving the Emperor insane. The Atreides are the obvious successors...
-- Leto/Paul and the Emperor are semi-distant cousins
-- the Atreides are well-liked and well-regarded by the other Great Houses
-- they're known for their honesty and trustworthiness in a grubby world of imperial politics
-- their military is small but man-to-man can match the Sardaukar
Paul marrying Irulan and producing an Atreides/Corrino heir solves this problem.
The problem is the Emperor doesn't want this. He's stubbornly clinging to his own power and the legacy of Corrino rule since the founding of the Imperium. This problem makes him aggressive and willing to take risks. So, he hatches the plot with the Harkonnen, the Atreides' ancestral enemies, to take them out of the picture. And you know what, it almost works for him... everybody thinks it worked at the end of Part One.
Leto and his marshals know it is a trap. They thought it worth it because...
-- Law and custom says that defying the Emperor's order they take over Arrakis would make them a renegade house. They have no other choices but to accept or to flee the Imperium.
-- Arrakis prints money. Controlling spice production brings enormous wealth and political leverage. If they can weather the storm, then they know the long-term dividends will be incredible.
-- Leto and his marshals (especially Duncan) are very aware of the Fremen and see them as natural and powerful allies (rather than a native people to be brutalize as the Harkonnen saw). Rather than fighting them, they plan to use them. They're an "undervalued asset" in MBA terms again to the Atredies.
-- The Atredies were prepared for the assault, but a traitor in their ranks decapitated them (capturing Leto) and metaphorically "threw open the gates" for the Harkonnen and the Sarduakar. That traitor was supposed to have undergone unbreakable conditioning... that the Baron found a way to break.
Spoilers...
Ironically, Leto's plan did work. Almost to the letter. It just worked for Paul. Once the Atreides made an alliance with the Fremen, secured Arrakis, and secured the spice, they did conquer the Imperium and bulldozed all the various power centers that could even hope to put up a fight against them.
Unfortunately that outcome was not glorious but terrible.
Unfortunately that outcome was not glorious but terrible.
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I love the book, it's among my favorites. I saw the movie with my sister, who actually read the books at my recommendation a long time ago and really enjoyed them. But as I said, it was a really long time ago.
She had no clue what was happening in large portions of the movie. There were things that were happening in the movie that even took me a few minutes to figure out, and I've probably read the book 10 times. Specifically Paul having visions of different futures with Jamis.
I loved the movie. I'm super pumped for Part 2. But Dune is actually emblematic of what I think is the biggest problem with movies in 2024 - you have to do homework before you go see them or you might not know what's going on at worst, or at best, feel like you're missing something.
I’m currently reading Dune: Messiah as they are hinting at it being made. Pretty interesting so far.
My wife had no exposure to Dune at all and said she found it fascinating and clear enough what was going on between the major characters, in the world, and in the maelstrom of imperial politics onscreen.
She was a GoT fan, so maybe me telling her beforehand to try and think about it in terms of Great House politics (something GoT borrows from Shakespeare/Herbert, etc.) helped her have a starting point.
That's next on my reading list! Picked it up at the bookstore a couple months ago
I certainly now know what all those people watching Marvel/DC/Star Wars/etc. projects over the last decade or so felt. The opening of this film perhaps could have used a bit more to set the table better, IMO.
Just back from Dune: Part One in IMAX again.
Even better than I remembered.
Definitely puts you in the right mood for Part Two to come out.
Even better than I remembered.
Definitely puts you in the right mood for Part Two to come out.
I wish I could get out to see in IMAX. It is a masterclass in scale. Seeing it on the biggest screen you can would be worth it. Unfortunately I didn’t see it the first time and I just can't take the time this weekend.
For some things one just needs to make the time.
Hope you can at least catch Part Two in a few weeks!