Wasn't that Marvin Pomerantz's goal to make cuts across our state universities in the 90's and avoid duplication? We protested that back then.
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WVU Appears to be in Trouble
- Thread starter acoustimac
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Wasn't that Marvin Pomerantz's goal to make cuts across our state universities in the 90's and avoid duplication? We protested that back then.
Citizens, not workers
I couldn't agree more!
But (always the but) if Iowa is investing in citizens and they all leave the state then the ROI isn't great for Iowa.
I'm completely in your camp here. I HIGHLY value a college education and the college experience.
From a Devil's Advocate perspective what's in it for an Iowa or West Virginia if the kids pack up and leave?
Higher education can be used to help change the direction of a state's economy. In a few different directions
Im as practical and ROI driven as anyone, but I am also old enough (wise?) to understand that everyone also MUST have some understanding of history, literature, economics, et al. Otherwise they dont understand the human implications of decisions, and have no sense of values to make those decisions.
High schools used to do that - thats where i read the illiad, shakespeare, learned western history, even a little philosophy. Didnt get any of that at ISU. But now hs is dumbed down, and used as an indoctrination opportunity and battleground for BOTH sides in the culture wars. All to the detriment of the education of tomorrows society. And a democracy cannot survive with an uneducated populace.
I hope the revolution is enlightened, more like the American one and less like the Russian or French ones...
High schools used to do that - thats where i read the illiad, shakespeare, learned western history, even a little philosophy. Didnt get any of that at ISU. But now hs is dumbed down, and used as an indoctrination opportunity and battleground for BOTH sides in the culture wars. All to the detriment of the education of tomorrows society. And a democracy cannot survive with an uneducated populace.
I hope the revolution is enlightened, more like the American one and less like the Russian or French ones...
The higher ed institutions can't do it on their own. I would bet my left leg the demand for social workers, educators, health providers is quite high in WV. The problem is if states nearby offer better work enviroments for those careers - the people with the means will leave. Which I'm sure has been happening for decades in that state. They needed programs to help transition out of coal mining but the appetite for those policies seems to have been low. What is the state of their rural broadband so they can attract remote workers to a cheaper COL area? Social safety net? Hop to MD, NJ, NY, and now DE and you have access to paid parental leave. Again, I'd bet access to healthcare, childcare improves as well. The state needs to be doing their part to make the state an attractive place for people to stay and raise families in.
They are the classics for a reason. And the 2nd bolded is the very reason the first is so attacked, belittled, and watered down. Again, getting into Cave territory but you are absolutely right.
The investment in the overall quality of life. You're right. None of this exists in a vacuum
I don't see a way out of the tailspin. On smaller levels I see towns I grew up in/around dry up and become places to escape from.
The folks who could leave bailed out. The others who stayed are now facing a stacked deck in the game of life.
Smarter people than me will have to figure this out. When they do I'm not sure the folks they want to help will want the help.
Education at a university needs to evolve. No offense to the LAS portion of ISU, if it isnt cutting it, I guess thats how it goes. Degrees that have a poor ROI will continue to struggle for enrollment, and thats going to continue.
I can see that even universities evolving to include more high end trades, and more budget options for students. The amount of money a kid has to invest for a poor ROI is not going to work long term.
I was fortunate to go to ISU in the mid 90s so I speak from a bit of an out of date position, so take that for what thats worth.
I can see that even universities evolving to include more high end trades, and more budget options for students. The amount of money a kid has to invest for a poor ROI is not going to work long term.
I was fortunate to go to ISU in the mid 90s so I speak from a bit of an out of date position, so take that for what thats worth.
I dont want to cave or "back in my day" this, so please dont take it as such. My view is that young people just arent that motivated, but kind of rationally so.
They take society for granted, and for $100 a month they get games, entertainment, and all human knowledge in the palm of their hand - cell phones. So the "worst case" floor is now so high, there isnt much point to working hard. Sure you mighy get lucky and hit it big but why bother? And there seems to be a perception that unless youre a billionaire, the difference between that high floor of making 20k and working real hard to make 200k just isnt worth it. Working hard is for suckers!
Thats just one facet of the issue, there are a dozen other things going on too (drug use, broken families, et al) and some of those are good things. I could type a manifesto but wont.
The optimistic view is the 0th law of economics. Eventually this will stop because it cant continue forever. Question is what will it look like?
I think we are going to be looking at a bunch of the private schools in Iowa going out of business at some point in the next 10+ years. They only way to get students is to cut their tuition, but its still ending up to be 30k+ per year after significant discounts.
I think people are starting to see a real value in going to a Community college for two years and then to a public school and working for 16-20 hours a week is something that may be required to help through school.
I still think its funny how people get worked up about 50k in college debt, but nobody ever talks about the overwhelming stupid Car loans people have once they graduate.
I also cringe at some of these majors in LAS and at private school LAS where you know your going to be making 30-40k per year but you come out with 100K debt at Grinnell college. Terrible ROI
which leads to another issue.....nobody is going to want to do all the Bad ROI jobs. I guess AI will have to kick in at some point?? lol.
all this is very concerning though.
I think people are starting to see a real value in going to a Community college for two years and then to a public school and working for 16-20 hours a week is something that may be required to help through school.
I still think its funny how people get worked up about 50k in college debt, but nobody ever talks about the overwhelming stupid Car loans people have once they graduate.
I also cringe at some of these majors in LAS and at private school LAS where you know your going to be making 30-40k per year but you come out with 100K debt at Grinnell college. Terrible ROI
which leads to another issue.....nobody is going to want to do all the Bad ROI jobs. I guess AI will have to kick in at some point?? lol.
all this is very concerning though.
Having successful institutions in your state is better than not having them. Businesses can thrive in that environment and you'll keep more kids than you would if they left before college. If your state sucks, this isn't the reason, but it can make your state suck less. Unfortunately, the states that suck are likely also the ones that will let thier universities die.
This is were the principal of the free market falls apart for me. The demand for health care, education, and social services professionals seems to be consistently growing. That should mean that the compensation for people in these field should be growing in kind, but that isn't the reality. These are professions that are overworked and underpaid, and jobs with some of the highest burnout rates in the economy. The free market is failing at providing services that are in-demand, and that is where the public sector needs to step in.
The problem is that it's largely by design. Specifically the fields of education and social services.
Maybe the governor will allow state funds to be used for college students and ISU can start a private school branch. Makes about as much sense as giving tax payer money to schools without any over sight.
The Daily coming through
"This statistic took the percentage of college graduates produced in Iowa against the percentage of college graduates living in Iowa, meaning that Iowa is losing over 34% of the college graduates produced in the state."
"This statistic took the percentage of college graduates produced in Iowa against the percentage of college graduates living in Iowa, meaning that Iowa is losing over 34% of the college graduates produced in the state."
The “exodus” of college graduates out of Iowa
Brock Elbert is a graduate of Iowa State University with a bachelor’s degree in genetics. He is Iowa-born and grew up in the small town of Indianola, a town that owns 11 miles of land. Indianola is home to Simpson College, museums and around 15,000 residents. However, Indianola and neighboring...
iowastatedaily.com
I am an engineer and as such am pretty analytical. In general analytics has helped improve a lot of things which is great. BUT our society has started to go in the direction of being way too analytical and optimizing about EVERYTHING. We need space for creativity and learning just for the sake of it. That's where all the next great ideas come from. Analysing stuff is great for improving and making better but it can often shut down new ideas and ways of doing things because the "business case" isn't there.
Hell just look at schooling before college too. Kids need to be analytical and optimizing all their opportunities from kindergarten on so they can get into the best schools and get the best jobs.
Hell just look at schooling before college too. Kids need to be analytical and optimizing all their opportunities from kindergarten on so they can get into the best schools and get the best jobs.
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CycloneErik
Well-Known Member
Culture war both sides? Please.
Since we're clearly headed for the Cave,
something more serious than the American Revolution sounds fine to me.
How do you determine what a good ROI is and who makes that decision? There are many employers who do want people educated in the Humanities and Social Sciences. Those employers wants skills like problem solving, communication, people-to-people, cultural competency, etc (there is data and research that backs all this up), and not just engineering or computer skills.
Though taking classes at a Community College may, and I stress may, save some money it is nothing more than a glorified 13th and 14th grades. I say may because as someone who works with Community College students transferring into ISU I can say many are here more than two years. I have this conversation with students and parents all the time. They think they can get an AA and transfer to ISU and be done in two years. That isn't necessarily true. It all depends if a student is taking the correct classes at the CC. If a student wants a STEM major, well, forget it. There is no way a STEM majors transferring in from a CC will be out of ISU in two years. ISU has a heavy presence at DMACC and we tell their students and their advisors this all the time and most do not listen. I have this conversation with friends who have college aged kids and they simply don't believe me until it hits them in the face. The automatic assumption is two years at a Community College, then two years at ISU then done. For most that isn't true and the tuition savings isn't that much.
And thank you for the car loan statement. This is absolutely true. Families won't think twice about a large car loan, or boat loan, or mortgage, but an education? God no! My first year in higher education I worked with a student who was crying about tuition costs. Said parents had so much debt because little brother was really sick, he almost died, and they had so many medical bills. All of that was true, and the College gave them a bunch of gift money as a result. Well, a few months after enrolling the student let it slip that parents were building a new house, had a cabin on the river with a boat, and there was no way they were going to give those things up for college. Priorities are way out of wack.
End rant.
Great way to get kids to transfer to a different school.
Well, ISU should be getting more funding than U of I, since more of our undergrads stay in state after graduation. I think it's a pretty high % too.
ROI is pretty simple to figure......if graduates of certain disciplines are not getting hired, or at a low pay rate its not difficult to calculate. The idea of wanting all the warm and fuzzy well rounded college experience type non measurables is nice and all, but if you graduate with either a lot of money/debt and time invested and do not earn enough to justify it, its pretty clear to me its a bad ROI.
People go to universities for more than ROI, but when it comes down to it that has to be part of the equation.
People go to universities for more than ROI, but when it comes down to it that has to be part of the equation.